I was just checking the Model K Keyboards site and just saw my dream keyboard

[apastuszak]

They now have an F122 in ANSI layout with inverted T nav cluster AND Windows/Super keys.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product ... -keyboard/

If I had $420 to spare I would order this thing so fast.

[TNT]

Tbh I'm just as intrigued by the normal Model-M-like variant. Very excited for this

[Muirium]

Model K?

[Man from Mars]

Saw the update on the website and I was also very pleased to see so many new models. The F122 is very tempting, indeed... 420€ + shipping + customs are quite less tempting...
Honestly, I wonder why the 122-key versions were not made that way since the beginning of the project.

Model K?

That's the evolution of the species, I suppose So the question is: where are the Model G, H, I and J keyboards?

[sharktastica]

Model K?

That's the evolution of the species, I suppose So the question is: where are the Model G, H, I and J keyboards?

Early UK-made Model Ms (which typically never had a "Model M" designation on the keyboard to begin with) could have a sticker inside that said "Model G", which makes sense chronologically but it seems it was abandoned in favour of using "M" for membrane and to my knowledge "G" was never utilised by other IBM regions at all. As such, I don't think anything in between existed - pretty much everything that came after the original flagship "Model G"/Model M (the Enhanced Keyboard) has also been membrane driven and either counted as a variant of Model M itself (ie, Models M3, M4/M4-1, M7/M7-1, M8, M9 and M11 buckling sleeve keyboards) or the nomenclature was dropped entirely and replaced with model numbers reflecting the keyboard OEM's nomenclature (ie, KB-8923 to reflect Chicony OEM, SK-8835 to reflect Silitek/LITE-ON OEM).

[apastuszak]

Model K?

Can't edit a post title, sadly.

[apastuszak]

My understanding is, this company does not accept returns for any reason. A couple of complaints on reddit of people receiving damaged keyboards and the company not making it right.

I know the Model F offers a superior typing experience. But is is "4 times more expensive than a New Model M" superior?

[Muirium]

The company is DT’s own Ellipse. He has a well earned reputation. Well, two of them: depending on who you ask! If you got a working board more or less as you wanted, you’ll love him. If not, then not so much.

It really is just him fulfilling these orders. He ships them out by hand, as well as handling all design and manufacturing details with the Chinese factory he works with. It’s both amazing and terrifying.

I’m very glad I don’t yearn for any of his boards.

Model K?

Can't edit a post title, sadly.

You sure can. Edit your OP. It’s right there. How else do you think people would make those hideous ever-mutating sales threads?

[del20nd]

My understanding is, this company does not accept returns for any reason. A couple of complaints on reddit of people receiving damaged keyboards and the company not making it right.

I know the Model F offers a superior typing experience. But is is "4 times more expensive than a New Model M" superior?

It depends on exactly how much damage we're talking about. The keyboards do come with a limited warranty, but "making it right" mostly seems to mean Ellipse mailing off replacement parts, and then it's on the user to repair the board. I'm not Ellipse, nor do I know him personally, but I'd guess this is probably a necessary evil to make the project viable at all. Look how expensive these keyboards are already, and imagine having to make another batch to set aside for warranty claims. I'd rather deal with the chance of having to make a repair than not have the project exist, because I understand that this isn't Samsung we're talking about here, it's a niche undertaking.

For me personally, an ANSI Model F is worth the premium. I spend over 50 hours a week at my keyboard, and it makes sense to buy the best. A Model F with a modern 104 key layout is the ultimate keyboard for me. It's the best balance of key feel, ergonomics and practicality. (Yes, a Model B might technically offer better key feel, and I weighed buying into that project instead, but they're huge, hulking things which need excessive care and feeding. The Model F was more appealing for its relative practicality.) This wasn't a purchase I took lightly, but this is something I've wanted for a very long time, and it will give me a real, measurable quality of life improvement. I bit the bullet.

For some people, the better key feel compared to a Model M won't be worth the price. For others, the improved layout from a Model F XT or AT won't be worth the price (though $420 is on par with or sometimes cheaper than original 122 key F's these days, and certainly cheaper than the rarer variants.) It all depends on what you can afford to pay, and how much having this specific keyboard means to you.

Given my own experience in the manufacturing world, I also don't feel like this is Ellipse trying to be mean or price gouge; given the immense amount of engineering and the manufacturing methods needed to make these things, as well as the small volumes and build quality on offer, the margins he's taking on these can't be that outrageous. This is just what it costs to bring an ANSI Model F into existence.

[Muirium]

^ This.

Ellipse could be a better communicator (it’s often said he sorely needs QA people and a customer support team) but his keyboards are a thing you can actually buy right here in the real world. They are a miracle, with all of the gotchas those entail!

As for feel: F beats M so very hard it doesn’t even make sense to touch M again once F has spoiled you. I’ve an NIB SSK and an unobtainium OG Kishsaver, as well as a pretty nice beamspring (in fact I’ve had the unusual experience of handling several of all of the above!) so I know well what they’re like. For me: F wins, hands down over M and by a technical knockout* over Beam. F is the keeper. Go for one of those and End Game.

*Beamspring is nice. I don’t dispute that. But not sufficiently nicer than F to be worth the compromise on GIGAMUNGOUS keyboard depth, and flaky responsiveness as well. F fixed a lot of issues with beams. It was an engineering job IBM could be proud of. The exact opposite of the cynical bean counting cost reduction that was M.

[apastuszak]

My understanding is, this company does not accept returns for any reason. A couple of complaints on reddit of people receiving damaged keyboards and the company not making it right.

I know the Model F offers a superior typing experience. But is is "4 times more expensive than a New Model M" superior?

It depends on exactly how much damage we're talking about. The keyboards do come with a limited warranty, but "making it right" mostly seems to mean Ellipse mailing off replacement parts, and then it's on the user to repair the board. I'm not Ellipse, nor do I know him personally, but I'd guess this is probably a necessary evil to make the project viable at all. Look how expensive these keyboards are already, and imagine having to make another batch to set aside for warranty claims. I'd rather deal with the chance of having to make a repair than not have the project exist, because I understand that this isn't Samsung we're talking about here, it's a niche undertaking.

For me personally, an ANSI Model F is worth the premium. I spend over 50 hours a week at my keyboard, and it makes sense to buy the best. A Model F with a modern 104 key layout is the ultimate keyboard for me. It's the best balance of key feel, ergonomics and practicality. (Yes, a Model B might technically offer better key feel, and I weighed buying into that project instead, but they're huge, hulking things which need excessive care and feeding. The Model F was more appealing for its relative practicality.) This wasn't a purchase I took lightly, but this is something I've wanted for a very long time, and it will give me a real, measurable quality of life improvement. I bit the bullet.

For some people, the better key feel compared to a Model M won't be worth the price. For others, the improved layout from a Model F XT or AT won't be worth the price (though $420 is on par with or sometimes cheaper than original 122 key F's these days, and certainly cheaper than the rarer variants.) It all depends on what you can afford to pay, and how much having this specific keyboard means to you.

Given my own experience in the manufacturing world, I also don't feel like this is Ellipse trying to be mean or price gouge; given the immense amount of engineering and the manufacturing methods needed to make these things, as well as the small volumes and build quality on offer, the margins he's taking on these can't be that outrageous. This is just what it costs to bring an ANSI Model F into existence.

I do not think he's price gouging at all. It's just a question of whether you think it's worth it to spend $420 on a keyboard. My expectation is that $420 is a premium price and should come with premium support. Sending me parts to do my own repair just doesn't fly with me. I get why it does for some people.

My other problem is I have never typed on a Model F. Actually, I probably did as a child, but I'm not going to remember the typing experience now. And unless I can borrow a Model F with the appropriate cables to make it work on my work PC so I can test drfive it for a few days, I can't risk it.

My understanding is that Ellipse will send parts to fix your keyboard, but he will not refund your money for any reason. That has me a little concerned also.

I get what he's doing and why he's doing it. But his business model is incompatible with my shopping practices. And that's fine. More power to him. I wish him much success.

[apastuszak]

^ This.

Ellipse could be a better communicator (it’s often said he sorely needs QA people and a customer support team) but his keyboards are a thing you can actually buy right here in the real world. They are a miracle, with all of the gotchas those entail!

As for feel: F beats M so very hard it doesn’t even make sense to touch M again once F has spoiled you. I’ve an NIB SSK and an unobtainium OG Kishsaver, as well as a pretty nice beamspring (in fact I’ve had the unusual experience of handling several of all of the above!) so I know well what they’re like. For me: F wins, hands down over M and by a technical knockout* over Beam. F is the keeper. Go for one of those and End Game.

*Beamspring is nice. I don’t dispute that. But not sufficiently nicer than F to be worth the compromise on GIGAMUNGOUS keyboard depth, and flaky responsiveness as well. F fixed a lot of issues with beams. It was an engineering job IBM could be proud of. The exact opposite of the cynical bean counting cost reduction that was M.

Even though the M is a cost cutting device, it's still a better typing experience than most of the mechanical keyboards that are out these days.

In the modern mechanical keyboard era, people are way more focused on keeping their keyboards quiet, fancy keycap colors, and weird custom keycaps rather than an actual amazing typing experience. It boggles my mind how many people will argue that linear switches are the only way to go, and even a TKL board is too big.

[del20nd]

^ This.

Ellipse could be a better communicator (it’s often said he sorely needs QA people and a customer support team) but his keyboards are a thing you can actually buy right here in the real world. They are a miracle, with all of the gotchas those entail!

As for feel: F beats M so very hard it doesn’t even make sense to touch M again once F has spoiled you. I’ve an NIB SSK and an unobtainium OG Kishsaver, as well as a pretty nice beamspring (in fact I’ve had the unusual experience of handling several of all of the above!) so I know well what they’re like. For me: F wins, hands down over M and by a technical knockout* over Beam. F is the keeper. Go for one of those and End Game.

*Beamspring is nice. I don’t dispute that. But not sufficiently nicer than F to be worth the compromise on GIGAMUNGOUS keyboard depth, and flaky responsiveness as well. F fixed a lot of issues with beams. It was an engineering job IBM could be proud of. The exact opposite of the cynical bean counting cost reduction that was M.

The fact that he's taking this all on mostly alone, and selling these boards at (what seems to be) very fair margins, and that they already cost over $400 means that something has to give. That's just something I've come to accept. If having better QA means that these boards jump from $420 to $650, I'd rather just do the repairs myself. I've taken apart and restored Model F's before, it's not outside my grasp. Personally, I'm amazed that he's able to get it all done even this well, and for this cheap.

The Model B vs F debate was so terribly real last week, especially considering that I'm already using a 122 key F. My brain kept ping-ponging:

"Would you rather... own the best all-round keyboard ever made, in the exact layout and form factor that you've always wanted it to be, but you'll probably never get to own the technically best switches, or... own the best feeling but least practical keyboard ever made, all while dealing with the quite annoying space limitations caused by using your existing F122 battlecruiser as a daily?"

Ultimately, it had to be the Model F. It's just a better keyboard. The beamspring stacks most of its stats in those great, great switches, but at a huge ergonomic and practical cost. Like you said they're GIGAMUNGOUS. Ellipse fixed the layout and USB interface, but they're still GIGAMUNGOUS.

Also, their complexity scares me. This isn't a knock to the project, and more based on my opinions/feelings than anything, but given the relative complexity of beamspring modules, it's more possible for premature failures to occur in the reproduction switches. More parts = more things to go wrong. We're already tempting fate with the Model F reproductions, and they're way simpler than beamsprings. I don't want to buy a repro beamspring keyboard and have switches start going bad after 100,000 key presses. Which, again I'm not saying they are, just that I fear it.

[del20nd]

My understanding is, this company does not accept returns for any reason. A couple of complaints on reddit of people receiving damaged keyboards and the company not making it right.

I know the Model F offers a superior typing experience. But is is "4 times more expensive than a New Model M" superior?

It depends on exactly how much damage we're talking about. The keyboards do come with a limited warranty, but "making it right" mostly seems to mean Ellipse mailing off replacement parts, and then it's on the user to repair the board. I'm not Ellipse, nor do I know him personally, but I'd guess this is probably a necessary evil to make the project viable at all. Look how expensive these keyboards are already, and imagine having to make another batch to set aside for warranty claims. I'd rather deal with the chance of having to make a repair than not have the project exist, because I understand that this isn't Samsung we're talking about here, it's a niche undertaking.

For me personally, an ANSI Model F is worth the premium. I spend over 50 hours a week at my keyboard, and it makes sense to buy the best. A Model F with a modern 104 key layout is the ultimate keyboard for me. It's the best balance of key feel, ergonomics and practicality. (Yes, a Model B might technically offer better key feel, and I weighed buying into that project instead, but they're huge, hulking things which need excessive care and feeding. The Model F was more appealing for its relative practicality.) This wasn't a purchase I took lightly, but this is something I've wanted for a very long time, and it will give me a real, measurable quality of life improvement. I bit the bullet.

For some people, the better key feel compared to a Model M won't be worth the price. For others, the improved layout from a Model F XT or AT won't be worth the price (though $420 is on par with or sometimes cheaper than original 122 key F's these days, and certainly cheaper than the rarer variants.) It all depends on what you can afford to pay, and how much having this specific keyboard means to you.

Given my own experience in the manufacturing world, I also don't feel like this is Ellipse trying to be mean or price gouge; given the immense amount of engineering and the manufacturing methods needed to make these things, as well as the small volumes and build quality on offer, the margins he's taking on these can't be that outrageous. This is just what it costs to bring an ANSI Model F into existence.

I do not think he's price gouging at all. It's just a question of whether you think it's worth it to spend $420 on a keyboard. My expectation is that $420 is a premium price and should come with premium support. Sending me parts to do my own repair just doesn't fly with me. I get why it does for some people.

My other problem is I have never typed on a Model F. Actually, I probably did as a child, but I'm not going to remember the typing experience now. And unless I can borrow a Model F with the appropriate cables to make it work on my work PC so I can test drfive it for a few days, I can't risk it.

My understanding is that Ellipse will send parts to fix your keyboard, but he will not refund your money for any reason. That has me a little concerned also.

I get what he's doing and why he's doing it. But his business model is incompatible with my shopping practices. And that's fine. More power to him. I wish him much success.

$420 is allot of money. But when you think about what's on offer, a perfect replica of capacitive buckling spring keyboard technology which hasn't been manufactured in ~30 years, adapted and cost optimized for small scale batch production (when the design was originally created by a gigantic computer company and optimized for large scale production), all while giving it a modern USB interface and layout... it's amazing that it can be offered at $420 at all.

Maybe Ellipse should offer a "premium service" option, for people who don't want to deal with the corners he's had to cut to be able to offer the board at $420. Maybe, for an extra $150-200, you get premium "applecare" support where you have a 5 year return window, can send the board in for repairs no questions asked during the warranty period, talk to a real human on the phone with setup issues, etc.

I don't think he could possibly offer it at current prices, but maybe he could make a little extra money by giving even higher rollers the option.

[del20nd]

^ This.

Ellipse could be a better communicator (it’s often said he sorely needs QA people and a customer support team) but his keyboards are a thing you can actually buy right here in the real world. They are a miracle, with all of the gotchas those entail!

As for feel: F beats M so very hard it doesn’t even make sense to touch M again once F has spoiled you. I’ve an NIB SSK and an unobtainium OG Kishsaver, as well as a pretty nice beamspring (in fact I’ve had the unusual experience of handling several of all of the above!) so I know well what they’re like. For me: F wins, hands down over M and by a technical knockout* over Beam. F is the keeper. Go for one of those and End Game.

*Beamspring is nice. I don’t dispute that. But not sufficiently nicer than F to be worth the compromise on GIGAMUNGOUS keyboard depth, and flaky responsiveness as well. F fixed a lot of issues with beams. It was an engineering job IBM could be proud of. The exact opposite of the cynical bean counting cost reduction that was M.

Even though the M is a cost cutting device, it's still a better typing experience than most of the mechanical keyboards that are out these days.

In the modern mechanical keyboard era, people are way more focused on keeping their keyboards quiet, fancy keycap colors, and weird custom keycaps rather than an actual amazing typing experience. It boggles my mind how many people will argue that linear switches are the only way to go, and even a TKL board is too big.

Yeah, I won't personally knock the M. It offers great value, and was my first run into mechanical boards. I get that it doesn't make sense for most people to invest $400-500 in a computer keyboard, but many more people can justify the $100 that Unicomp wants for ~75% of the experience.

[apastuszak]

It depends on exactly how much damage we're talking about. The keyboards do come with a limited warranty, but "making it right" mostly seems to mean Ellipse mailing off replacement parts, and then it's on the user to repair the board. I'm not Ellipse, nor do I know him personally, but I'd guess this is probably a necessary evil to make the project viable at all. Look how expensive these keyboards are already, and imagine having to make another batch to set aside for warranty claims. I'd rather deal with the chance of having to make a repair than not have the project exist, because I understand that this isn't Samsung we're talking about here, it's a niche undertaking.

For me personally, an ANSI Model F is worth the premium. I spend over 50 hours a week at my keyboard, and it makes sense to buy the best. A Model F with a modern 104 key layout is the ultimate keyboard for me. It's the best balance of key feel, ergonomics and practicality. (Yes, a Model B might technically offer better key feel, and I weighed buying into that project instead, but they're huge, hulking things which need excessive care and feeding. The Model F was more appealing for its relative practicality.) This wasn't a purchase I took lightly, but this is something I've wanted for a very long time, and it will give me a real, measurable quality of life improvement. I bit the bullet.

For some people, the better key feel compared to a Model M won't be worth the price. For others, the improved layout from a Model F XT or AT won't be worth the price (though $420 is on par with or sometimes cheaper than original 122 key F's these days, and certainly cheaper than the rarer variants.) It all depends on what you can afford to pay, and how much having this specific keyboard means to you.

Given my own experience in the manufacturing world, I also don't feel like this is Ellipse trying to be mean or price gouge; given the immense amount of engineering and the manufacturing methods needed to make these things, as well as the small volumes and build quality on offer, the margins he's taking on these can't be that outrageous. This is just what it costs to bring an ANSI Model F into existence.

I do not think he's price gouging at all. It's just a question of whether you think it's worth it to spend $420 on a keyboard. My expectation is that $420 is a premium price and should come with premium support. Sending me parts to do my own repair just doesn't fly with me. I get why it does for some people.

My other problem is I have never typed on a Model F. Actually, I probably did as a child, but I'm not going to remember the typing experience now. And unless I can borrow a Model F with the appropriate cables to make it work on my work PC so I can test drfive it for a few days, I can't risk it.

My understanding is that Ellipse will send parts to fix your keyboard, but he will not refund your money for any reason. That has me a little concerned also.

I get what he's doing and why he's doing it. But his business model is incompatible with my shopping practices. And that's fine. More power to him. I wish him much success.

$420 is allot of money. But when you think about what's on offer, a perfect replica of capacitive buckling spring keyboard technology which hasn't been manufactured in ~30 years, adapted and cost optimized for small scale batch production (when the design was originally created by a gigantic computer company and optimized for large scale production), all while giving it a modern USB interface and layout... it's amazing that it can be offered at $420 at all.

Maybe Ellipse should offer a "premium service" option, for people who don't want to deal with the corners he's had to cut to be able to offer the board at $420. Maybe, for an extra $150-200, you get premium "applecare" support where you have a 5 year return window, can send the board in for repairs no questions asked during the warranty period, talk to a real human on the phone with setup issues, etc.

I don't think he could possibly offer it at current prices, but maybe he could make a little extra money by giving even higher rollers the option.

That wouldn't be a bad option.

Though I think it would be cool if he could make discrete buckling spring switches, instead of a PCB. Don't know if that's possible, but if it is, it could lead to all sorts of interesting form factors.

[apastuszak]

All this Model M/F talk inspired me to hook my New Model M up.

I like the Soarer's Converter so much better that QMK/VIA/VIAL.

Too bad you can't get these new Model Fs in PS/2 so you can use a Soarer's Converter with them.

[Tribal]

I’m a little shocked there isn’t an Unsaver option.

[apastuszak]

I’m a little shocked there isn’t an Unsaver option.

What is Unsaver?

[del20nd]

I’m a little shocked there isn’t an Unsaver option.

What is Unsaver?

Basically the same as a 122 key, but tenkeyless (so a 104 key F.) In other words, a tkl board with a 10 key left hand cluster and F13-24. It's a rare variant of F122 battlecruiser that actually predates it by a bit, and is the design the F122 is based on.

Once you see one, you can't unsee how tacked on the numpad looks on an original F122.

Given that he's offering an F122 and a TKL, I can see why he opted out. The Model M style variant has roughly the same footprint as an unsaver anyway, AND you get the numpad.

[Ellipse]

This is an interesting discussion. del20nd you mentioned your experience in hardware manufacturing? Anything (details, best practices, advice, etc.) you are able to share, if it is appropriate?

apastuszak the project's philosophy is to give the user the power to maintain and repair their keyboards long after the project is done and not to have to rely on others to do so. Self sufficiency is the idea. I explain more in detail on the manual page of the project web site. Even just thinking about the lost time of shipping a keyboard in transit would bug someone who doesn't have good quality spare keyboards to use for a few weeks (or months if you are outside the US), and it would only work for the duration of the warranty instead of how long a Model F could last for if maintained. These keyboards are not difficult to work on yourself; they take an hour or so to learn how to repair and with a first aid kit on hand ahead of time you can repair most issues (the most common issue is a spring that needs reseating or replacement). Why spend $40-$150 (US/int'l) in round trip shipping funds and hire a repair technician (thus raising the cost of each board) to replace springs or damaged keycaps?

I am not sure which reddit posts you are referring to but no one is left with a nonworking keyboard, though they have to be willing to follow the manual and troubleshooting steps. If a key or other part is broken I usually mail a replacement. Some folks are upset that each case has minor cosmetic defects in the paint finish or that they were surprised about there being customs and duty fees for international shipments. Regarding the finish, I intentionally chose an uncoated old style paint and texture (to keep in line with the IBM originals) instead of a more modern automotive style finish for the F62/F77 original style boards so the paint will not be perfect initially and will wear down over time. Many of the other QC issues posted years ago were fixed in subsequent batches.

If you are worried about the paint finish I did go with a more durable and modern powdercoating paint finish for the ultra compact F62/F77 cases and the new M Style cases which you might prefer. The M Style cases have a powdercoated texture closer to the Model M case (as shown in the photos posted a couple weeks ago on the project thread) which is easier for the factory to do in a more durable way.

Regarding the cost, these keyboards cost about half what IBM charged for them, adjusted for inflation. Many of the parts are metal and all are custom made from molds and tooling that had to be recreated. The cost of trucking, shipping, metal and other raw materials has skyrocketed in recent years and these boards are heavy, so shipping will not be a bargain.

[del20nd]

This is an interesting discussion. del20nd you mentioned your experience in hardware manufacturing? Anything (details, best practices, advice, etc.) you are able to share, if it is appropriate?

Sure! I can talk about the subject generally, without going into the nitty-gritty specifics of how the company was run. (That information probably wouldn't help too much anyway, as they worked on a very different scale than this project. In fact, to that end, watching your google talk about the small scale you're working on was fascinating because of how it compared to larger scale manufacturing.)

Quick background for perspective on where I'm coming from:

My experience in manufacturing comes from four years of recently developing for, supporting and maintaining the ERP system of a medium scale US based appliance manufacturer in the role of a software analyst. The platform their ERP ran on was an IBM AS/400 / iSeries / Power System. In other words, the platform that 122 key Model F/M keyboards are actually intended to be used on . I've moved on from this particular company, but am still generally working on the IBM platform.

For those that don't know, an ERP (Enterprise Resource Planning) system is more-or-less the backbone software package that any large corporation uses to track their business. Distribution centers, manufacturers, insurance companies, grocery store chains, etc all use ERPs that are tailored to their specific business needs. There's leeway in how these get used from company to company (some are allot more paper oriented than others), and they range from being out-of-the-box installs to extremely customized. In extremely generalized terms, a manufacturer might use an ERP to track Bills of Material, Material Orders, Finished goods, payroll, resource planning, shipments, invoices, audit history, etc, etc, etc. Which of those things, and in what capacity they're used, will vary wildly from one business to another.

Given that the ERP touches basically everything in the company, that I went out of my way to learn how the business was run (because I'm a bit of a knowledge sponge), and I happened to be employed during one of the most frantic, disruptive periods in modern manufacturing history, which required allot of out-of-the-box thinking to keep operations moving along, I have a decent thousand yard view of how it all comes together.

So anyway...

Tips and stuff:

I guess in general, given that it's such a completely different ecosystem, be wary of tips from anybody working in medium to large scale manufacturing . You already know this, but the general knowledge around making 1,000 of something is wildly, wildly different than the general knowledge around making a million of something. In seeing how you overcame obstacles, I was starting to wonder, for example, if scale played into why you went for aluminum cast casings instead of plastic for the new keyboards, even though nobody would've batted an eye at plastic since it's "period correct" for the newest project: I started looking into it and it seemed like maybe the die casts for aluminum at a small scale, combined with the higher labor cost made more economic sense for you than investing in the very expensive injection molds that would be required to make plastic parts, even though there'd be a labor savings. Or maybe, if it didn't save money directly, if the cost difference was small enough to justify the higher quality case.

I don't need to tell you that your keyboard shouldn't be managed the same way as a production line churning out 6 million CD players of course, but I do see allot of questions like "why is this keyboard $420 when it doesn't even come with X Y Z premium super-premium 25 year warranties that [really big manufacturer] offers," and I think this is just people not realizing how much scale plays into the pricing we see on electronics today, and how spoiled we all are by that. These keyboards cannot ever have the same economy of scale as Logitech, that the margins on these boards may actually be lower than what a big manufacturer pulls, and you have to be realistic about what things cost when there's one person working on making only a few thousand of them!

If I try to think of something that could maybe broadly apply, while it wouldn't make a lick of sense for you to buy into a major ERP platform given your scale, especially because you're the only one touching the data, it might make sense for you to come up with data management conventions that mimicked the structure of an ERP if you haven't already.

I'm not sure how you're doing this now, but at the absolute minimum I'd have a religiously kept system to track incoming parts, bills of material to assemble orders, material orders for what's required for each variant of keyboard assembly, finished goods, invoices, etc. This organization is key to how larger manufacturers are able to turn around product. Keeping that info well tracked would definitely be helpful if you ever scaled up how much you're making. Given that I didn't work at such a small scale, I don't know what's on the market in this regard, or if maybe you're just really, really good at keeping Excel spreadsheets in order, but the big guys who are growing are very careful/organized with their data.

I'm probably not too useful on how to manage your supply chain; I did work with those guys but didn't do their job. I can say that it's a very quick moving, adaptive field, especially in the last few years. I guess I could apply that to your situation by saying to be creative in how you overcome bottlenecks? For example, if your supplier suddenly decided that they're not going to powder coat the cast aluminum keyboard casings, don't rule out doing something like importing them unpainted and contracting somebody local, even an auto body shop. As long as you keep those processes well documented so you know what works and what doesn't. Supply setbacks are common, especially these days, but there are sometimes ways around them if you're creative, especially if you're the first one to think of the solution and can negotiate a price under the radar.

Another thing I can't really talk about is how to deal with overseas manufacturers, since our factories were domestic, and made particular effort to keep as much of the supply chain domestic as possible. We did have to contract out some parts where no domestic options existed (broad example, there's not one manufacturer in the US who makes electrolytic capacitors, so if you're a company that needs some of those you'll be working with an international supplier) but unfortunately all of my advice here is broad platitudes which are well known: be careful of your suppliers, as Chinese factories are notorious for ripping off patented designs. Given your scale, and the fact that you're not patenting anything, you might not have to worry about things like this.

***

That's all I can think off the top of my head.

Given what you've done here, you know way more than I do, but I'm smart enough to at least understand that I. I can make educated guesses about why you may or may not have made this-or-that choice, and can tediously explain to people in the Ars Technica comments section that no, you're not Samsung and no, you're not "ripping people off", that this is just what it costs to bring a few thousand Models F into the world, that it's actually a miracle that these things can be brought to maket so affordably at all and he's keeping prices this low by not having the overhead of multi-year warranties and 24/7 on-call support hotlines, that if you can't accept that small projects will inevitably cost more money then you're not in the market for one of these keyboards, please just buy a mass market mech board if you want to spend $100 or less, etc, etc....

If I do come up with anything else I'll try to remember to post it, and if you have any specific questions that maybe you want to try to jog my memory on, please feel free to PM or just reply here.

[Ellipse]

This is a great read del20nd! Thanks for sharing it.

Regarding ERP I manage these projects using ERPNext (as well as with non-ERP offerings like Excel and Wordpress's Woocommerce), which helps with inventory management and accounting. We are dealing with more than one million parts so it would be more work to track this manually in another way. This way with ERPNext I can track how much quantity of each item is where (in my stock or at the factory), whether the quantity has been moved into an assembled unit, and what I am running low on and need to order more of.

Regarding metal, the original Model F 4704 keyboards were metal cased so I chose metal cases for the reproductions. For the Model M style cases I chose to continue with metal as I feel that a plastic case would be out of place for a high end keyboard. Unfortunately the aluminum case molds can not be switched to make some cases out of plastic or zinc (I looked into this) so everyone has to stay with aluminum. These keyboards are still quite heavy even with aluminum instead of zinc: the Classic F104 weighs about 8 pounds (!) excluding packaging, compared to about one more pound for the classic F77, even though the latter case is made of zinc and the former is aluminum.

[engr]

Was zinc pest ever an issue with IBM model F cases? When I was young, I used to have a bunch of diecast zinc scale models, and that was a big problem with them.

[Muirium]

Looks it up:

Zinc pest (from German Zinkpest), also known as zinc rot and zamak rot, is a destructive, intercrystalline corrosion process of zinc alloys containing lead impurities. …



It was first discovered to be a problem in 1923, and primarily affects die-cast zinc articles that were manufactured during the 1920s through 1950s. The New Jersey Zinc Company developed zamak alloys in 1929 using 99.99% pure zinc metal to avoid the problem, and articles made after 1960 are usually considered free of the risk of zinc pest since the use of purer materials and more controlled manufacturing conditions make zinc pest degradation unlikely.

Sure looks gnarly! I’ve never encountered it, though, not even in parents’ generation die-cast toys like the train above, let alone my Kishsaver. Seems to be a truly vintage problem!

[del20nd]

Was zinc pest ever an issue with IBM model F cases? When I was young, I used to have a bunch of diecast zinc scale models, and that was a big problem with them.

As somebody who collects antiques, my experience is that zinc pest was largely solved by the 1950s. I've only ever seen it on one (very cheap) pot metal light fixture made after the 50s, and even that dated to the early 70s.

That observation, combined with the fact that IBM was very aware of quality control, and that I've never seen a reported case of it, leads me to believe it was never an issue.

[engr]

Sure looks gnarly! I’ve never encountered it, though, not even in parents’ generation die-cast toys like the train above, let alone my Kishsaver. Seems to be a truly vintage problem!

I had some Soviet and Russian diecast models manufactured in 1990s that fell apart like this. I think the issue was that the alloys they used had a lot of impurities.

[Muirium]

If anyone was going to use purified Zinc from the New Jersey Zinc Company, it would be IBM.