Alps Appreciation

User avatar
engr

13 Apr 2023, 02:37

TNT wrote:
12 Apr 2023, 23:19
Isn't the build quality of the original Omnikeys vastly superior?
Depends on the generation. As far as I know, the difference between the last generation of Omnikeys (which have programmability and Windows keys) and the Avant keyboards isn't huge. Omnikeys, even last gen, have double-shot keycaps (the wiki has it wrong), nicer looking badges, some differences in EEPROM and firmware, and that's about it. Both have simplified white Alps, permanently attached cables, full programmability, and both lack DIP switches. Even the PCBs inside Avant keyboards are labeled "Omnikey 101/102/Ultra".

However, the Avant boards seem to have a higher chance of having working EEPROMs (either because of the younger age, or because of the hardware differences - the EEPROMs are from a different manufacturers), and I like to have full programmability. Unfortunately, the EEPROM chips from Avant and Omnikey boards aren't interchangeable.

If I didn't care about programmability and Windows keys, I would stick with the older Omnikeys, which are indeed better (complicated Alps switches, detachable cables, DIP switches, ANSI layout on some 101s).

User avatar
Polecat

13 Apr 2023, 03:19

Switches and caps were to me the only things that were compromised on the Gen4 boards. Some Gen4 Northgates still had double shot caps, but some were printed, with a blob of clear paint over the printing. Switches on the Gen4 boards were SKBM (simplified) Alps, with possible exceptions.

The heavy plastic upper case and metal bottom cover, and the heavy steel switchplate were not cheapened, and the PC board quality also remained the same.

User avatar
Polecat

13 Apr 2023, 03:45

engr wrote:
12 Apr 2023, 17:38
Interesting, thank you for checking. Looks like I will have to keep looking for an Avant Stellar if I want a working the holy grail of Alps keyboards - a reprogrammable Omnikey battlecruiser with Windows keys. These seem to be pretty rare, I have yet to see one in the wild.
I've been keeping a database of Northgate keyboards (also Focus, Monterey, Leading Edge, and a few others) since 2017. The idea was to try to understand the different models and changes. I was discouraged, but I did it anyway. I now have 741 Northgate keyboards on the list, with switch, cap, model, serial number, and any other info I thought worth noting at the time.

That number includes 76 Gen4 Northgate and Avant keyboards, not counting the Evolution (ergo) boards, broken down by model as follows:

Avant Prime - 16
Avant Stellar - 24
101P - 23
102P - 7
UltraTP - 4
Rebranded - 2

User avatar
engr

13 Apr 2023, 15:30

So Avant Stellar keyboards are actually more common than Avant Prime, 101P, or Ultra-TP?
I guess I just have had bad luck with them. I have been hunting for programmable Omnikeys on eBay for a couple of years now, and during that time I have seen 2 Avant Primes, a 101P, and an Ultra-TP, but not a single Avant Stellar.

On a related note, I was pondering swapping a case of my Avant Prime or Ultra-TP with an older Omnikey to create a programmable Omnikey with a detachable cable. Unfortunately, the internal cable connectors and grounding on older and newer Omnikeys are a bit different, so I will need to do some research on cable pinout and whatnot if I ever want to get this working.

User avatar
Polecat

13 Apr 2023, 17:37

The Gen2 and Gen3 Northgates were the ones with detachable cables. The Gen2 case was shorter than Gen3 and Gen4, and had a different top row layout, and probably wouldn't take the internals from a Gen4. Seems like it would be easier just to wire a PS/2 connector to the Gen4 and install it in the rear of the case. A Gen3 case would only save you from drilling the hole.

User avatar
engr

13 Apr 2023, 18:58

Isn't the metal case bottom the same for the comparable models (101 vs 101P, 102/Ultra-T vs 102P/Ultra-TP?)
It should be possible to wire the PS/2 connector (I think it's part of the case rather than the PCB) to the Gen4 PCBs.

User avatar
Polecat

14 Apr 2023, 05:00

engr wrote:
13 Apr 2023, 18:58
Isn't the metal case bottom the same for the comparable models (101 vs 101P, 102/Ultra-T vs 102P/Ultra-TP?)
It should be possible to wire the PS/2 connector (I think it's part of the case rather than the PCB) to the Gen4 PCBs.
Between Gen3 and Gen4, yes. Anything earlier, no.

User avatar
engr

20 Apr 2023, 15:49

Polecat wrote:
14 Apr 2023, 05:00
Between Gen3 and Gen4, yes. Anything earlier, no.
I knew I shouldn't have given away that Ultra-T with bamboo white Alps. Oh well.

On a related note, this wiki page needs a few updates. Some 102's which I guess can be called Gen 1a (like this one) have all the features of Gen 1 (vendor code 111, non-detachable cable, no DIP switches, AT/XT switch) except for the gold badge. I strongly suspect they have pine white Alps. Likewise, the info for Gen 4a should be updated to point that least some of them had double-shot keycaps.

User avatar
Polecat

20 Apr 2023, 17:41

engr wrote:
20 Apr 2023, 15:49

On a related note, this wiki page needs a few updates. Some 102's which I guess can be called Gen 1a (like this one) have all the features of Gen 1 (vendor code 111, non-detachable cable, no DIP switches, AT/XT switch) except for the gold badge. I strongly suspect they have pine white Alps. Likewise, the info for Gen 4a should be updated to point that least some of them had double-shot keycaps.
We've taked about those before. I have 5 or 6 on record. One of those had a factory RMA label on the box. I believe those are factory repaired units, either warranty exchanges or repaired and returned to customers. Some have blue SKCM switches, some have white. Some of these, probably exchange units, have a unique serial number format (9xxxxx - 6 digits) while others like this one, probably customer repairs, still have their original (paper) label. This is speculation, so should not be posted in the wiki as "fact".

There were also the late badgeless Gen1 keyboards with a 1xxxxxx (7 digits) inspection number format and dates well into the Gen2 time frame. (Not to be confused with the very early Gen1 gold label boards with 102xxxxx inspection numbers - 8 digits) Those badgeless Gen1s were probably sold under a different brand name, or possibly included as an OEM keyboard with a computer system. Again speculation. All of those to date have had white SKCM switches.

edit: By the way, what is the knob on the back edge of this one? I haven't seen that before.

User avatar
engr

20 Apr 2023, 18:19

So the 102's with blue badges may still have blue Alps? The sticker on this particular one says it's August 1989, past the blue Alps cutoff date listed on the wiki page.
Polecat wrote:
20 Apr 2023, 17:41
edit: By the way, what is the knob on the back edge of this one? I haven't seen that before.
I messaged the seller, we'll see what he replies.

User avatar
TNT

20 Apr 2023, 18:24

Polecat wrote:
20 Apr 2023, 17:41
edit: By the way, what is the knob on the back edge of this one? I haven't seen that before.
Maybe a screw to attach an external grounding solution (Like a wire/cable to ground the board)?

User avatar
Polecat

21 Apr 2023, 03:25

engr wrote:
20 Apr 2023, 18:19
So the 102's with blue badges may still have blue Alps? The sticker on this particular one says it's August 1989, past the blue Alps cutoff date listed on the wiki page.
My opinion, and it's only that, is that all the Gen1 Northgates started out with gold badges, and got the later badges as part of a factory refurb or repair.

We have established that there is no exact cutoff date for blue Alps on the Northgate keyboards. I have two 102 models, dated three weeks apart, May and June 1989. The earlier one has blue Alps and the later one white unbranded white Alps. But there is a May example dated two days earlier than my May one which has white Alps, and examples dated as late as July with blue Alps. Neither the label dates, serial numbers, or inspection numbers are a reliable predictor of the switches. You have to keep in mind nobody ordering these keyboards at the time gave a damn about the switch color, or even knew there was a change. That distinction didn't come until keyboard fanatics started obsessing about slider color twenty or thirty years later. The paper labels were almost certainly added after Northgate received the keyboards from Taiwan (they also appear on other OEM Northgate keyboards from different suppliers), and there was no reason to keep them "in order" unless there was a physical change of some sort. Likewise at the factory in Taiwan where they were assembled, they certainly weren't sorting them by switch color. If a box of white Alps keyboards was stacked in front of a box of blue Alps ones of the same model it very well could have been shipped first.

I have six Northgate 102s listed with the 9xxxxx serial numbers and blue and white badges. Two have blue Alps, two have white Alps, and two are unknown.
engr wrote:
20 Apr 2023, 18:19
I messaged the seller, we'll see what he replies.
Ask about the packing list also! It would be very interesting to know if there are any clues about this one in the packing list attached to the box.

edit: The ebay example's box is distinctly different from the original Gen1 boxes, which had a black and white photo of the keyboard printed on the top. Another clue that this one was "handled" by Northgate some time after it was made originally.

edit2: I dug out the box photos and there was an inner and outer shipping box in some cases (not the ebay one apparently). And it was the outer box with the photo of the gold badge 102. Never as simple as we want it to be!

User avatar
Polecat

21 Apr 2023, 05:48

More on the Northgates. Looking at my list more closely I have two other July and August 1989 102 (Gen1) examples with blue and white badges and normal serial numbers. Other July and August examples have gold badges, and like other Northgate features there's no clear break by serial number or date. But it does appear possible that some late Gen1 Northgates were indeed built originally with the blue and white badges. August 1989 was probably the last month for the normal (vs, badgeless) Gen1s, so this would be just before the Gen2 models came out. The dates on the Gen2 models seem to have started at 89/07 (July) so there was a bit of overlap, and that would explain the later badges being available during Gen1 production. (Did Northgate install the badges after the keyboards arrived?) Sorry about the confusion; hopefully we'll see more examples turn up so we can confirm this.

User avatar
amigastar23

21 Apr 2023, 20:20

Hey there,
i have a question. How many key rollover has a Vintage Focus FK-2002 with blue alps?
Is it 2 key rollover or more? And are 2 key rollover enough for playing videogames?
thanks

User avatar
Polecat

30 Apr 2023, 02:36

amigastar23 wrote:
21 Apr 2023, 20:20
Hey there,
i have a question. How many key rollover has a Vintage Focus FK-2002 with blue alps?
Is it 2 key rollover or more? And are 2 key rollover enough for playing videogames?
thanks
I don't know the answer to that, but I think it's more complicated than just "X-key rollover", maybe depends on which keys or combinations? I have a couple early FK-2001 keyboards and I'll check if you can tell me how to do that. It makes no difference for anything I do, so I never worried about it.

User avatar
amigastar23

30 Apr 2023, 16:02

Polecat wrote:
30 Apr 2023, 02:36
amigastar23 wrote:
21 Apr 2023, 20:20
Hey there,
i have a question. How many key rollover has a Vintage Focus FK-2002 with blue alps?
Is it 2 key rollover or more? And are 2 key rollover enough for playing videogames?
thanks
I don't know the answer to that, but I think it's more complicated than just "X-key rollover", maybe depends on which keys or combinations? I have a couple early FK-2001 keyboards and I'll check if you can tell me how to do that. It makes no difference for anything I do, so I never worried about it.
Hey there, thx but it's alright, the seller confirmed to me its n key rollover. Currently waiting for a Chicony 5161 to arrive with blue alps.

User avatar
amigastar23

05 May 2023, 09:04

I just received my Blue Alps keyboard the Chicony 5161 and honestly i'm underwhelmed because my old white alps keyboard sounds more like Blue Alps than this one. Maybe i need acclimatisation and then it will click.

inozenz

05 May 2023, 10:06

amigastar23 wrote:
05 May 2023, 09:04
I just received my Blue Alps keyboard the Chicony 5161 and honestly i'm underwhelmed because my old white alps keyboard sounds more like Blue Alps than this one. Maybe i need acclimatisation and then it will click.
restore your keyboard. makes a huge difference. also for blue alps to really shine u need good caps and better case imo. I think chicony made low tier blue alps boards, even focus i find better. but the best one imo is the datacomp 101 with thic upper case, metal bottom case, thicc doubleshots and metal plate. some say the acer is best but i dont think so.

User avatar
TNT

05 May 2023, 10:34

I agree with that restoring makes a huge difference, but I see where you're coming from. The first blue alps that I bought weren't perfect and a very mixed bag despite being new, so I too was very disappointed at first.
inozenz wrote:
05 May 2023, 10:06
restore your keyboard. makes a huge difference. also for blue alps to really shine u need good caps and better case imo. I think chicony made low tier blue alps boards, even focus i find better. but the best one imo is the datacomp 101 with thic upper case, metal bottom case, thicc doubleshots and metal plate. some say the acer is best but i dont think so.
What Datacomp are you referring to? The DFK 101 has a plastic lower case, hasn't it?

User avatar
Muirium
µ

05 May 2023, 12:12

Ah, the ineffable magic of Alps. When it's gone, it is GONE! But sorcery like the waxboil may bring it back for you.

My blue Alps boards are epic, and I too have some pretty damn nice (but very regular) white Alps. Blues are another level entirely. And yes, I too doubt Acer ever made something to match my majestic beast of a Focus FK-555.

User avatar
TNT

05 May 2023, 13:14

Muirium wrote:
05 May 2023, 12:12
And yes, I too doubt Acer ever made something to match my majestic beast of a Focus FK-555.
Image

inozenz

05 May 2023, 13:49

TNT wrote:
05 May 2023, 10:34
I agree with that restoring makes a huge difference, but I see where you're coming from. The first blue alps that I bought weren't perfect and a very mixed bag despite being new, so I too was very disappointed at first.
inozenz wrote:
05 May 2023, 10:06
restore your keyboard. makes a huge difference. also for blue alps to really shine u need good caps and better case imo. I think chicony made low tier blue alps boards, even focus i find better. but the best one imo is the datacomp 101 with thic upper case, metal bottom case, thicc doubleshots and metal plate. some say the acer is best but i dont think so.
What Datacomp are you referring to? The DFK 101 has a plastic lower case, hasn't it?
not the early model i have. its normal us ansi layout even, which i dont like but is rare. not really sure if its dfk 101 but on the pcb its labeld 101

User avatar
amigastar23

05 May 2023, 17:39

inozenz wrote:
05 May 2023, 10:06
amigastar23 wrote:
05 May 2023, 09:04
I just received my Blue Alps keyboard the Chicony 5161 and honestly i'm underwhelmed because my old white alps keyboard sounds more like Blue Alps than this one. Maybe i need acclimatisation and then it will click.
restore your keyboard. makes a huge difference. also for blue alps to really shine u need good caps and better case imo. I think chicony made low tier blue alps boards, even focus i find better. but the best one imo is the datacomp 101 with thic upper case, metal bottom case, thicc doubleshots and metal plate. some say the acer is best but i dont think so.
So you say i should change the keycaps from lets say my white alps board which sounds better with the keycaps from my Chicony 5161 with Blue Alps? Would it sound better then? The White Alps keyboard sounds better more low pitched, the Chicony Blue Alps is more high pitched sounding.
I hope you can help me, i'm really desperate i was hoping for better sounding Blue Alps. I mean the Blue Alps are there i just need something to extract their sound, right?
TNT wrote:
05 May 2023, 10:34
I agree with that restoring makes a huge difference, but I see where you're coming from. The first blue alps that I bought weren't perfect and a very mixed bag despite being new, so I too was very disappointed at first.
What do you understand under restoring, cleaning them up and such? Because the switches don't seem to be dirty it's just their sound is high pitched.

User avatar
TNT

05 May 2023, 18:34

amigastar23 wrote:
05 May 2023, 17:39
What do you understand under restoring, cleaning them up and such? Because the switches don't seem to be dirty it's just their sound is high pitched.
I was referring to cleaning the switches, lubing them with the recommended methods and such. The general premise with precious Alps like Blues seems to be to do as little as necessary tho. If the feel and condition is good but the sound is off, don't open up the switches. Like people said before, caps and chassis makes a major difference. Although preferences seem to differ, a lot of people seem to like the roomier cases, which amplify the sound more.

inozenz

05 May 2023, 18:38

I'd recommend using some foam and use some modern mods for stabilizers, especially space bar

User avatar
amigastar23

05 May 2023, 18:44

TNT wrote:
05 May 2023, 18:34
amigastar23 wrote:
05 May 2023, 17:39
What do you understand under restoring, cleaning them up and such? Because the switches don't seem to be dirty it's just their sound is high pitched.
I was referring to cleaning the switches, lubing them with the recommended methods and such. The general premise with precious Alps like Blues seems to be to do as little as necessary tho. If the feel and condition is good but the sound is off, don't open up the switches. Like people said before, caps and chassis makes a major difference. Although preferences seem to differ, a lot of people seem to like the roomier cases, which amplify the sound more.
I really would love to try out my white alps keycaps since they sound better, i just don't know if it would make a difference.
Or i sell the keyboard just simply.

inozenz

05 May 2023, 18:46

amigastar23 wrote:
05 May 2023, 18:44
TNT wrote:
05 May 2023, 18:34
amigastar23 wrote:
05 May 2023, 17:39
What do you understand under restoring, cleaning them up and such? Because the switches don't seem to be dirty it's just their sound is high pitched.
I was referring to cleaning the switches, lubing them with the recommended methods and such. The general premise with precious Alps like Blues seems to be to do as little as necessary tho. If the feel and condition is good but the sound is off, don't open up the switches. Like people said before, caps and chassis makes a major difference. Although preferences seem to differ, a lot of people seem to like the roomier cases, which amplify the sound more.
I really would love to try out my white alps keycaps since they sound better, i just don't know if it would make a difference.
Or i sell the keyboard just simply.
Bro are u from Germany? And is your name Paul?

User avatar
amigastar23

05 May 2023, 18:46

inozenz wrote:
05 May 2023, 18:46
amigastar23 wrote:
05 May 2023, 18:44
TNT wrote:
05 May 2023, 18:34


I was referring to cleaning the switches, lubing them with the recommended methods and such. The general premise with precious Alps like Blues seems to be to do as little as necessary tho. If the feel and condition is good but the sound is off, don't open up the switches. Like people said before, caps and chassis makes a major difference. Although preferences seem to differ, a lot of people seem to like the roomier cases, which amplify the sound more.
I really would love to try out my white alps keycaps since they sound better, i just don't know if it would make a difference.
Or i sell the keyboard just simply.
Bro are u from Germany? And is your name Paul?
yes, why who are you?

inozenz

05 May 2023, 18:48

amigastar23 wrote:
05 May 2023, 18:46
inozenz wrote:
05 May 2023, 18:46
amigastar23 wrote:
05 May 2023, 18:44

I really would love to try out my white alps keycaps since they sound better, i just don't know if it would make a difference.
Or i sell the keyboard just simply.
Bro are u from Germany? And is your name Paul?
yes, why who are you?
I'm the one you got your keyboard from 😂

User avatar
amigastar23

05 May 2023, 18:49

inozenz wrote:
05 May 2023, 18:48
amigastar23 wrote:
05 May 2023, 18:46
inozenz wrote:
05 May 2023, 18:46


Bro are u from Germany? And is your name Paul?
yes, why who are you?
I'm the one you got your keyboard from 😂
Yes, i thought so, don't get me wrong the keyboard works fine it's just the sound who is a little bit off, :D

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