F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[RedESC]

Just kinda curious. The for the F122, how heavy are you expecting it to turn out once fully assembled? (Kinda a fan of comically heavy keyboards) Also any plans to add some updated photos to your store listing for the F122 to replace the 3D render? (maybe using that rejected case you posted here or something)

One other question. What is your plan for the default programming of the 10 extra keys to the left and f13-f24. (if memory serves some applications can use f13-24 but it's rare, currently I just bind F13 to push to talk and have my mouse set to output that)

[Ellipse]

RedESC the classic cases are as follows: F104 assembled sample is 7.8 pounds. FSSK is 6.6 pounds. The F122 case and unfinished top/bottom inner assembly plates weigh 7.1 pounds (this does not count the PCBs, barrels, flippers, keys, USB cable, etc. so the final keyboard will weigh more).

Not sure on the default programming - everyone please post your suggestions for a standardized option. Maybe we will follow the Mac F1-F12 standards for these F13-F24 keys. As noted on the project page, no keys come with the keyboard for these 22 keys so you can pick any keys you want from the Extra Keys page and configure the keyboard to match.

[RedESC]

@Ellipse Nice, over 3.5KG on the case alone sounds fun. Far heavier than my Unicomp New Model M, that's for sure, can't wait for these to ship. Thanks for getting back.

One option is to do shifted F1-F12, think the Unicomp PC122 does that. Not really sure that's all that practical to most people though. (Only thing I'm aware of using shifted F keys is Altium designer as a friend with an adapted terminal m122 discovered by accident when using push to talk that he had mapped to one of the extra F keys) Personally I'd like to be able to program each F13-24 to change the functions of the keys on the left. (allowing different profiles/layers for different purposes, e.g. Push F13 for media/volume/brightness controls using buttons on left, F14 to make the buttons on the left output useful commands for work, F15 being some macro for a game I play, F16 might be configured for another piece of software etc)

[Ordinary Witch]

Ellipse: On Linux, you can pretty reliably use the actual F13-24 keycodes as defined by the USB HID usage tables spec in any program in my experience. If the default keymap won't use those codes, maybe there could be a keymap file included in the firmware zip archive that does, when the time comes to update that archive.
Overall not a big deal even if that won't be included, since configuring those keys is easy in the project's QMK configurator instance, but some people might wanna be lazy :3

RedESC: stuff like that most likely isn't possible with the default firmware. If you know C, you can expand that firmware to do everything you've described. I do know C and I'm actually planning on learning how QMK firmware works in further detail once my F122 arrives and I can experiment with it.
I'd imagine you can register custom keycodes in the firmware that you define actions for using C code and which you can then configure in the QMK configurator with the "any" key (this seems to be how the solenoid controls are implemented).
Just sending a series of keycodes for macro purposes doesn't sound like an overly difficult task, but that's to be seen.

Since I'm typing on a Unicomp PC-122, I can confirm that it sends shifted F-keys for F13-24, and some of the terminal-specific keys on the left-hand block and the nav cluster send control-F-keys. During purchase, you can tell Unicomp to use "single usage code firmware" on the board so it'll send the "real" keycodes, but you'll need to pay three customization fees for that.

[RedESC]

Ordinary Witch I do know C, learned it at Uni, never done anything with QMK firmware though. (Did recently get into some Arduino Programming for some home automation stuff though, that was good fun) Will be a fun thing to play with once I get my hands on one of these. Also didn't know Unicomp gave you that option with the PC-122, that's neat.

[Ellipse]

Here is a comprehensive 1 hour setup video for the new Model F keyboards - I recommend that everyone looking to set up and learn how to use and maintain a Model F keyboard watches this video.

Chapters:
0:00 Introduction, safety information
2:57 Parts identification
3:28 Initial setup steps
5:35 Installing stabilizer inserts
7:15 Spacebar installation and optimization
12:16 Installing the remaining keys; fixing stuck or binding keys (the wiggle method, etc.)
18:23 “Quality control secrets” steps: adjusting a key that doesn’t click, doesn’t work, or buzzes
23:23 Steps starting with plugging in your keyboard to the computer (testing, troubleshooting double presses, etc.)
27:26 Solenoid installation (optional)
31:02 Diagnosing issues with many keys
37:08 Opening up the keyboard inner assembly (change/maintain the layout or case)
40:08 Intermediate firmware adjustment (firmware/layout customization)
57:40 Appendix (cleaning, modifications, etc.)

[Ordinary Witch]

I made a sort of weird custom VIAL layout for the F122. I called it the industrial F130, since that's pretty much what I've decided to do with mine when it arrives.

I defined the matrix positions for the layout based on the picture of the PCB sent here by Ellipse a while ago when they announced the leyden jar controller's success (I hope I interpreted it correctly!).

Here's the VIAL layout itself:

Code: Select all

{
	"lighting": "none",
	"matrix": {
		"rows": 8,
		"cols": 18
	},
	"layouts": {
		"labels": [
			"Un-split Backspace",
			"Un-split Left Shift"
		],
		"keymap": [
			[
				{
					"x": 4.25,
					"c": "#dfdacf"
				},
				"0,2",
				"0,3",
				"0,4",
				"0,5",
				{
					"x": 0.5,
					"c": "#929390"
				},
				"0,6",
				"0,7",
				"1,8",
				"0,8",
				{
					"x": 0.5,
					"c": "#dfdacf"
				},
				"0,9",
				"0,10",
				"0,11",
				"0,12",
				{
					"x": 3.5,
					"c": "#929390",
					"w": 2
				},
				"2,12\n\n\n0,1"
			],
			[
				{
					"x": 2.25
				},
				"0,0",
				{
					"x": 1,
					"c": "#dfdacf"
				},
				"1,2",
				"1,3",
				"1,4",
				"1,5",
				{
					"x": 0.5,
					"c": "#929390"
				},
				"1,6",
				"1,7",
				"2,7",
				"2,8",
				{
					"x": 0.5,
					"c": "#dfdacf"
				},
				"1,9",
				"1,10",
				"1,11",
				"1,12",
				{
					"x": 0.25,
					"c": "#929390"
				},
				"0,13",
				"0,14",
				"0,17",
				{
					"x": 0.25,
					"w": 2.25
				},
				"6,1\n\n\n1,1"
			],
			[
				{
					"y": 0.5
				},
				"1,0",
				"0,1",
				{
					"x": 0.25,
					"c": "#dfdacf"
				},
				"1,1",
				"2,2",
				"3,2",
				"2,3",
				"2,4",
				"2,5",
				"3,5",
				"2,6",
				"3,7",
				"3,8",
				"3,9",
				"2,9",
				"2,10",
				{
					"c": "#929390"
				},
				"2,11\n\n\n0,0",
				"2,12\n\n\n0,0",
				{
					"x": 0.25
				},
				"1,13",
				"2,14",
				"1,14",
				{
					"x": 0.25
				},
				"1,15",
				"2,15",
				"1,16",
				"2,17"
			],
			[
				"2,0",
				"2,1",
				{
					"x": 0.25,
					"w": 1.5
				},
				"3,1",
				{
					"c": "#dfdacf"
				},
				"4,2",
				"4,3",
				"3,3",
				"3,4",
				"4,5",
				"4,6",
				"3,6",
				"4,7",
				"4,8",
				"4,9",
				"3,10",
				"3,11",
				{
					"w": 1.5
				},
				"3,12",
				{
					"x": 0.25,
					"c": "#929390"
				},
				"2,13",
				"3,13",
				"3,14",
				{
					"x": 0.25,
					"c": "#dfdacf"
				},
				"3,15",
				"3,16",
				"2,16",
				{
					"c": "#929390"
				},
				"3,17"
			],
			[
				"3,0",
				"4,0",
				{
					"x": 0.25,
					"w": 1.75
				},
				"4,1",
				{
					"c": "#dfdacf"
				},
				"5,2",
				"5,3",
				"4,4",
				{
					"n": true
				},
				"5,4",
				"5,5",
				"5,6",
				{
					"n": true
				},
				"5,7",
				"6,7",
				"5,8",
				"5,9",
				"5,10",
				{
					"c": "#929390",
					"w": 2.25
				},
				"4,12",
				{
					"x": 3.5,
					"c": "#dfdacf"
				},
				"4,15",
				"4,16",
				"5,17",
				{
					"c": "#929390"
				},
				"4,17"
			],
			[
				"5,0",
				"5,1",
				{
					"x": 0.25,
					"w": 1.25
				},
				"6,1\n\n\n1,0",
				{
					"c": "#dfdacf"
				},
				"6,3\n\n\n1,0",
				"6,4",
				"7,4",
				"7,4",
				"7,5",
				"6,5",
				"6,6",
				"7,7",
				"6,8",
				"6,9",
				"6,10",
				{
					"c": "#929390",
					"w": 2.75
				},
				"6,12",
				{
					"x": 1.25
				},
				"5,13",
				{
					"x": 1.25,
					"c": "#dfdacf"
				},
				"5,15",
				"5,16",
				"6,16",
				{
					"c": "#929390"
				},
				"6,17"
			],
			[
				"6,0",
				"7,0",
				{
					"x": 0.25,
					"w": 1.5
				},
				"7,1",
				"7,2",
				{
					"w": 1.5
				},
				"7,3",
				{
					"c": "#dfdacf",
					"w": 7
				},
				"7,6",
				{
					"c": "#929390",
					"w": 1.5
				},
				"7,10",
				"7,11",
				{
					"w": 1.5
				},
				"7,12",
				{
					"x": 0.25
				},
				"7,13",
				"7,14",
				"6,14",
				{
					"x": 0.25,
					"c": "#dfdacf"
				},
				"6,15",
				"7,15",
				"7,16",
				{
					"c": "#929390"
				},
				"7,17"
			]
		]
	}
}

and here's the KLE data:

Code: Select all

[
  {
    "backcolor": "#6b6b6b",
    "name": "F130 Industrial",
    "author": "Ellipse, Marisa",
    "notes": "Modified \"Brand new Model F122\" for VIAL.\n\ntop left: matrix position,\nbottom right: options\n\noption 0: split backspace\noption 1: split left shift",
    "plate": false
  },
  [
    {
      "x": 4.25,
      "c": "#dfdacf"
    },
    "0,2",
    "0,3",
    "0,4",
    "0,5",
    {
      "x": 0.5,
      "c": "#929390"
    },
    "0,6",
    "0,7",
    "1,8",
    "0,8",
    {
      "x": 0.5,
      "c": "#dfdacf"
    },
    "0,9",
    "0,10",
    "0,11",
    "0,12",
    {
      "x": 3.5,
      "c": "#929390",
      "w": 2
    },
    "2,12\n\n\n0,1"
  ],
  [
    {
      "x": 2.25
    },
    "0,0",
    {
      "x": 1,
      "c": "#dfdacf"
    },
    "1,2",
    "1,3",
    "1,4",
    "1,5",
    {
      "x": 0.5,
      "c": "#929390"
    },
    "1,6",
    "1,7",
    "2,7",
    "2,8",
    {
      "x": 0.5,
      "c": "#dfdacf"
    },
    "1,9",
    "1,10",
    "1,11",
    "1,12",
    {
      "x": 0.25,
      "c": "#929390"
    },
    "0,13",
    "0,14",
    "0,17",
    {
      "x": 0.25,
      "w": 2.25
    },
    "6,1\n\n\n1,1"
  ],
  [
    {
      "y": 0.5
    },
    "1,0",
    "0,1",
    {
      "x": 0.25,
      "c": "#dfdacf"
    },
    "1,1",
    "2,2",
    "3,2",
    "2,3",
    "2,4",
    "2,5",
    "3,5",
    "2,6",
    "3,7",
    "3,8",
    "3,9",
    "2,9",
    "2,10",
    {
      "c": "#929390"
    },
    "2,11\n\n\n0,0",
    "2,12\n\n\n0,0",
    {
      "x": 0.25
    },
    "1,13",
    "2,14",
    "1,14",
    {
      "x": 0.25
    },
    "1,15",
    "2,15",
    "1,16",
    "2,17"
  ],
  [
    "2,0",
    "2,1",
    {
      "x": 0.25,
      "w": 1.5
    },
    "3,1",
    {
      "c": "#dfdacf"
    },
    "4,2",
    "4,3",
    "3,3",
    "3,4",
    "4,5",
    "4,6",
    "3,6",
    "4,7",
    "4,8",
    "4,9",
    "3,10",
    "3,11",
    {
      "w": 1.5
    },
    "3,12",
    {
      "x": 0.25,
      "c": "#929390"
    },
    "2,13",
    "3,13",
    "3,14",
    {
      "x": 0.25,
      "c": "#dfdacf"
    },
    "3,15",
    "3,16",
    "2,16",
    {
      "c": "#929390"
    },
    "3,17"
  ],
  [
    "3,0",
    "4,0",
    {
      "x": 0.25,
      "w": 1.75
    },
    "4,1",
    {
      "c": "#dfdacf"
    },
    "5,2",
    "5,3",
    "4,4",
    {
      "n": true
    },
    "5,4",
    "5,5",
    "5,6",
    {
      "n": true
    },
    "5,7",
    "6,7",
    "5,8",
    "5,9",
    "5,10",
    {
      "c": "#929390",
      "w": 2.25
    },
    "4,12",
    {
      "x": 3.5,
      "c": "#dfdacf"
    },
    "4,15",
    "4,16",
    "5,17",
    {
      "c": "#929390"
    },
    "4,17"
  ],
  [
    "5,0",
    "5,1",
    {
      "x": 0.25,
      "w": 1.25
    },
    "6,1\n\n\n1,0",
    {
      "c": "#dfdacf"
    },
    "6,3\n\n\n1,0",
    "6,4",
    "7,4",
    "7,4",
    "7,5",
    "6,5",
    "6,6",
    "7,7",
    "6,8",
    "6,9",
    "6,10",
    {
      "c": "#929390",
      "w": 2.75
    },
    "6,12",
    {
      "x": 1.25
    },
    "5,13",
    {
      "x": 1.25,
      "c": "#dfdacf"
    },
    "5,15",
    "5,16",
    "6,16",
    {
      "c": "#929390"
    },
    "6,17"
  ],
  [
    "6,0",
    "7,0",
    {
      "x": 0.25,
      "w": 1.5
    },
    "7,1",
    "7,2",
    {
      "w": 1.5
    },
    "7,3",
    {
      "c": "#dfdacf",
      "w": 7
    },
    "7,6",
    {
      "c": "#929390",
      "w": 1.5
    },
    "7,10",
    "7,11",
    {
      "w": 1.5
    },
    "7,12",
    {
      "x": 0.25
    },
    "7,13",
    "7,14",
    "6,14",
    {
      "x": 0.25,
      "c": "#dfdacf"
    },
    "6,15",
    "7,15",
    "7,16",
    {
      "c": "#929390"
    },
    "7,17"
  ]
]

I have to say that VIAL is an awesome piece of software. It didn't really take much effort to create this layout with KLE apart from the time spent looking up the matrix positions.
It's certainly much easier than writing layouts as C preprocessor macros, as you do in QMK. In addition to that, VIAL seems to be more user-friendly and has built-in support for macros and such, which would be super cool to support especially since the Leyden Jar has 2MB of flash, at least in its current incarnation.

[StrangerCoug]

Not sure on the default programming - everyone please post your suggestions for a standardized option. Maybe we will follow the Mac F1-F12 standards for these F13-F24 keys. As noted on the project page, no keys come with the keyboard for these 22 keys so you can pick any keys you want from the Extra Keys page and configure the keyboard to match.

F13-F24 for the top row and a duplicate F1-F10 for the left block? Media keys for one of them?

[omegaalpha]

Is there any reason you went with squared off inner edges around the keys instead of rounded corners like on the original Model Ms?

[Ellipse]

As a way to combine the F and M designs, I think I wanted the corners to be closer to those of the F122; maybe I was more worried about the variance in keys and barrels with F's compared to M's and the rounded corner of a key making contact with a corner?

I also made a number of modifications on the inside to accommodate the Model F inner assembly.

[enthdegree]

Just curious, any estimate for how much longer the reverse Dutch auction on the F50s is going to run?

[Ellipse]

Level1Techs just posted a nice video on the ultra compact new Model F!

Here was the reply I posted: "Thanks Wendell for making this video on the Brand New Model F Keyboards project! If you do adapt the new Model F into the IBM SSK case, please do let me know how it goes. I would not recommend it as you would probably have to irreversibly trim some plastic off the original case to fit the larger inner assembly of a Model F. Regarding the recessed case, I do want to let everyone know that you can also order the F104 and FSSK with a standard Model M style case that is made out of metal and whose interior design is adapted to the Model F. A downside is that unfortunately you can't switch an inner assembly from the compact case to the classic case or vice versa as they are slightly different in design (you could do this with the F62/F77 though)."

enthdegree not sure yet, maybe around month end. I still have not tested them with QMK firmware as the firmware has not been updated yet.

[RedESC]

Just wondering, it appears in that video that the keyboard assembly sits quite low in the case almost to the point of being almost flush with the chassis for some keys in the middle row. Will this be the same for the Model M style cases or will they sit at a similar height to that on a normal Model M/terminal model M?. (aided by the curve in the chassis to match the curve of the keyboard)

[Ellipse]

Things are more normal with the classic cases, as shown in the photos in this post and a few posts after this post: viewtopic.php?p=513627#p513627

The keys of the compact and classic cases are at just about the same angle as with the Model F and M but the compact case top more fully encloses the middle rows of keys because the case top is flat and the case could not be lowered or changed due to the design of the curved inner assembly plate. It is less noticeable with the compact F62/F77 because the arc is shorter.

[Takashi]

Hey everyone!

So I've got a really weird behaviour with the Model F on an "older" computer.
So I have two F77 Model F's, both loaded with VIA software.
- One is connected to a new computer: Intel Z690, core i9 12900k
- One is connected to an old computer: Intel Z170, core i7 6700k (EVGA Stinger Z170, with latest bios from 2019)

If any of the two keyboards is connected to the 12900k, it works PERFECTLY. No problems with the keyboards whatsoever.

If any of them is connected to the 6700k, I get very strange behavior.
Sometimes (~20% of the time) I have to press a key twice for it to register.
Sometimes a key get's "stuck" (for example if I press enter, then enter just keeps being pressed until I press enter again and then it gets "unstuck".
This behaviour makes the keyboard completely un-usable on the 6700k. If I take any normal keyboard on the 6700k (like the ducky premier pro I'm writing from now) on the 6700k, it works fine.

I'd love to use my Model-F on the 6700k without having to buy a new motherboard/CPU.

Any ideas what the problem might be?

[Ellipse]

Takashi are you using a USB hub? Are you using a third party USB port (Marvell? the old USB-3 ports that were not yet part of the chipset / stock motherboard design) that requires drivers, or one of the USB ports associated with the motherboard? I would recommend switching ports as someone recently solved the issue the same way (by switching to another USB port). There are also USB power settings that should probably be disabled.

[Takashi]

Hey Ellipse! I don't use an USB-hub, but I changed to another USB-port (from a 2.0 to 3.0 one), and now everything works perfectly. Thank you very much for the suggestion. Now I can enjoy the same wonderful Model-F experience on my trusty older platform as well

[Ordinary Witch]

This made me want to look up the power differences between USB 2.0 and 3.0, and apparently USB 3.0 can supply 900mA of current in superspeed mode while USB 2.0 doesn't have superspeed and can supply 500mA. Maybe this is a factor?

[RedESC]

Just slightly curious. You got any long term plans to make pure white keys? or are you mostly sticking to IBM's original colours. (just think modern bright white key would go well with the black cases you sell/make) Perfectly happy with the classic off white but would make the board stand out a bit more and look a lot more modern if that was an option.

[Ordinary Witch]

Unicomp sells their brilliant white keycaps separately as well, just in case. I know ellipse's caps are probably of higher quality though

[Ellipse]

I just came across a thorough F62 Kishsaver review video on YouTube (embedded below), which included setup, sound tests, solenoid on and off, along with various combinations of mods: Floss mod, foam mod (adding foam inside the keyboard to dampen the sound), using a keyboard mat, etc.

Nope no plans to add additional colors unless someone is willing to cover the minimum order quantity costs.

And for old time's sake, here is one of my favorite videos from a keyboard meetup in 2018, highlighting the new Model F project. The song and editing are so nice, I have to see it a few times!

And here's a nice F62 sound test that someone posted (I might have posted this one before)

F77 sound tests

[RainehDaze]

Hmm, been having some weird behaviour recently and it's just baffled me.

Every now and then, a particular key will stop responding at all until the keycap is removed and it's reset, even though everything appears fine. It's always one of the same few keys so far--S, E, 4, left alt; in those areas. Everything's actuating fine, but the key just stops working. Take it off, and sure enough everything falls into place normally and will output constantly if the keyboard's kept level. Reinstall keycap, it goes back to working normally. Really not sure what on Earth might be causing this issue, since it can flare up mid-sentence.

[Ellipse]

Probably need to touch up the soldering for that column and/or tighten the ground screws.

[digital_matthew]

Hmm, been having some weird behaviour recently and it's just baffled me.

Every now and then, a particular key will stop responding at all until the keycap is removed and it's reset, even though everything appears fine. It's always one of the same few keys so far--S, E, 4, left alt; in those areas. Everything's actuating fine, but the key just stops working. Take it off, and sure enough everything falls into place normally and will output constantly if the keyboard's kept level. Reinstall keycap, it goes back to working normally. Really not sure what on Earth might be causing this issue, since it can flare up mid-sentence.

I have the same problem intermittently with my "D" key on my F62. Unplugging it and plugging it back in fixes it.

[Ellipse]

If it's one key I would guess it is probably debris underneath the flipper or a spring that needs to be reseated/replaced.

Also what is the current status of Vial for the original xwhatsit controller? Since there were so many keyboards supported, I was wondering if someone could make a 16x8 matrix of 1U keys so the various boards could be configured just like the original xwhatsit firmware (press a key on the keyboard and then configure it).

[depletedvespene]

Couple quick questions about keycaps:

1) In the keycap sets, the "novelties" group has an "F62" key and an "F77" key. Is there a plan to add "F104", "FSSK" or "F50" keys to that particular roster? (I know I'll be wanting two 1U "FSSK" keys for myself... nod nod, wink wink)

2) Can other international layouts still be requested? I'm quite, quite tempted to ask for one you don't have.

Bonus question: 3) How about 1.75U keys with the "Esc" label? Ever since I put Esc where Caps Lock normally lives, I've come to love this so much I ain't going back on this.

[Ellipse]

1. Not sure. I haven't added these just yet
2. Yes, I can send anyone the Inkscape template but you have to design the layout yourself by typing in the letters and legends in each box. Helvetica is probably the closest option but other fonts are acceptable. You'd have to order a few sets minimum to cover the setup costs.
3. Yes I have some of these available.

[depletedvespene]

1. Not sure. I haven't added these just yet
2. Yes, I can send anyone the Inkscape template but you have to design the layout yourself by typing in the letters and legends in each box. Helvetica is probably the closest option but other fonts are acceptable. You'd have to order a few sets minimum to cover the setup costs.
3. Yes I have some of these available.

1. Do tell whenever you make a decision.
2. How many is "a few"?
3. I'll be asking directly for some of those.

[thefarside]

PC World review of the new ultra compact:
https://www.pcworld.com/article/1928356 ... eview.html

[Ellipse]

A nice review from PC World - thanks for sharing the link thefarside!

1. Yes, will do
2. About 5 sets minimum.