Dear Model F owners, can we talk? (Long rant)

[Muirium]

I can’t get with 60%, best I’ve used is the HHKB, which was great for portable use when typing, but I hate relying on layers so much

That's the thing: 60% either calls to you, or it doesn't. A month into my time here at DT, I was already coming under its spell…

I want to get something I've a fighting chance of loving for the long haul. And while I came here in search of MX-Blues, the more I've delved into the details, the more I'm liking the HHKB.

Unlike Stalast, for me less is most definitely more. The HHKB has really caught my eye with its thoughtful layout and mesmerising all-white style. Minimalism, stark and brutal! Yes, it costs twice the £100-£120 a Filco, Ducky, or even a KBT would for me here. But the caps are already just the way I want them. Blank and PBT. It's Mac compatible in a way the asymmetric modifier layouts of its competitors are not; seeing as I've a decade of key combos and scripting keystrokes already wired around Command and Option on either side of the space bar. Even the arrow keys, via function layer, look to make sense to me. Yes, I'm in self-salesman mode, evidently.

Just a pity it's not Bluetooth. (And the mod seems in hibernation.)

Fortunately, the HHKB I’m typing on cost mere Filco money, and Hasu's Bluetooth controller is very much alive and well. I didn't realise I was into silencing from the get-go, but yes that too is sorted with upstroke damping rings. Guess I already had a fair inkling what I'd be into, all the way back then.

For me, there's great Zen in staying so close to home row the whole time you're on a keyboard. That's what I love about 60%, as well as the symmetry, the portability and the looks: your hands move less. I’m not put off using arrows / nav / function keys at all. Indeed, I find them smoother to use while in my flow. How? Because when you nip off to press arrows etc. on any other keyboard size, away your right hand goes. Mine doesn't. I’m still here, right back to what I was doing next.

Anyway, that's just my rationale for compacts. There is nothing wrong with being into full-size, or even great hulking terminal layouts. Indeed, all the fire comes from one direction. 'How can you guys live on such sissy little keebs?' Easily, just like this! Everyone works best when they've found their comfort spot on the layout spectrum.

[LambdaCore]

That's the thing: 60% either calls to you, or it doesn't. A month into my time here at DT, I was already coming under its spell…

Yeah, for sure. I get it, conceptually, and it's true that we all use our keyboards in different ways. I play a lot of video games for example, and playing certain games without my F keys would be really clunky to have to nab on a layer, where as while I'm coding I USE those keys, but I don't need instant access for example.

[Muirium]

Hitting F3 is no harder than hitting # for me. Fn + 3 versus Shift + 3. Do you ever feel you need a dedicated # key? Or @ or $ or… etc.?

Not that I am immune to this idea, in legends at least!



Here's my real point: we all use layers. Shift is a layer! Even a battleship doesn't have a separate deck for CAPITAL LETTERS. We all accommodate Shift without a second's thought, and a navigation layer on a Function key works in just the same way. Keep it consistent and it's as natural as Shift. They're the same muscle in memory.

[LambdaCore]

To a certain extent, yeah, we do all use layers. However, most games were designed with the standard ANSI or ISO layouts made standard by the Model M decades ago... that said, I WOULD like to get an HHKB again, typing this on my laptop and I miss having an easily portable keyboard...

[Muirium]

As a committed lap-typist, keyboards don't get any better for precisely this than the HHKB.

I mean, a Kishsaver definitely works, but even chunky Scots legs get a little anxious under that weight for long.

[LambdaCore]

Not to mention I kind of want a quieter board for scenarios like this, as much as I love buckling springs! That said, I think I’d prefer 55g Topre to the 45g my previous hhkb was

[Muirium]

Easy: just use it long enough and every HHKB goes to 55g. I didn't believe it myself until I finally got my second one, last year. My original still felt the same to me—it's gradual—until I tried the brand new in box boy. Huh? My heavily used 2014 daily driver is closer to my 55g Realforce than its fellow HHKB!

I like both feels, incidentally. Kinda want to stockpile HHKB Pro 2s while they're still available NIB so I have a light reserve I can always try in my 55g everywhere future!

[podgen]

I get thiss, i feel like every time I get a new keyboard i try to liken it to a previous one instead of appreciating the last for what it is, and i feel like many people fall into this trap. I (though i can't really speak on it too much as my F has a cut cable and i haven't yet converted it) personally prefer the model F for it's firmer bottom out feel and it's lighter springs, as both were my main issues with the model m - but there are people that type with 150g mx springs, preference is absolutely the basis of this hobby.

[AndyJ]

prefer the model F for it's firmer bottom out feel and it's lighter springs, as both were my main issues with the model m

That's not always true. There's noticeable variation among the keyboards, likely partly due to which factory they came from. My current F is noticeably stiffer than any of my Ms; stiff enough I'm probably going to replace the springs when I have it apart to do the M spacebar mod.

[podgen]

prefer the model F for it's firmer bottom out feel and it's lighter springs, as both were my main issues with the model m

That's not always true. There's noticeable variation among the keyboards, likely partly due to which factory they came from. My current F is noticeably stiffer than any of my Ms; stiff enough I'm probably going to replace the springs when I have it apart to do the M spacebar mod.

Oh interesting, because the model f xt is the most common one i think generally it's the point of reference, so i went off that.

[Entropia]

It was fun reading the OP's message. It's true that people on the Internet tend to exaggerate everything. It's also true that, to some extent, we all like bragging when we have the best of the best. However, I don't think think that's a reason not to be sensible. I have never tried a Model F, but I had a Model M (later model made by Lexmark) and a friend of mine has a earlier model (heavier and with a detachable cable). It was obvious that his keyboard felt better than mine. By that time I didn't know about the rivets issue, so I never checked it out and I just thought the better build construction was responsible for the crispier typing experience. Some years ago I got a Unicomp Model M. I sold it immediately. Apart from the flimsy case and the terrible legends alignment, some keys just felt awkward. Then I discovered the project by Ellipse and actually was very tempted to get one, but the F77 limited layout wasn't for me. That's why, a priory, I consider, subjectively, the Model M a better keyboard than the Model F. The construction may better one the later and the typing experience slightly superior, but the modern layout of the Model M is a bigger benefit overall. Now that Ellipse has created a Model F replica with the layout and exact shape of a Model M, it looks like a dream come true. Actually, I'm almost decided to purchase one. The only thing that I still see inferior to the Model M is the case, which is made of metal, painted metal, which may be good to have a very heavy keyboard, but makes it much more prone to scratches and paint chipping. Also, the cable is not coiled. For me a classic keyboard has to have a coiled cable. The original Model F had the best coiled cable ever made, so thick, black and shiny.

[Muirium]

That's why, a priory, I consider, subjectively, the Model M a better keyboard than the Model F.

A priory, you say?



Glad you weren’t being serious. F vs. M is fighting talk.

[Entropia]

Sorry, I meant "a priori". It's an expression in Latin.

[Muirium]

Indeed, I was just being a nasty little pain in the posteriori.

[Inxie]

4 pages about Model M's and F's, and no one brought up that Model F's are n-key rollover, and Model M's are 2-key rollover (sometimes 3, depending on which keys on the matrix)?

[sharktastica]

(sometimes 3, depending on which keys on the matrix)?

Model Ms are always 2-key rollover. Rollover would be the guaranteed minimum achievable combo size for all keys, not the maximum in a certain scenario. For example, the matrix used in the Unicomp Mini M is theoretically capable of having Q-T + A-G + Z+B being pressed all at once but no one would say that means it can do "15-key rollover". It's still fundamentally 2KRO, but you can get creative with how you design a matrix. DT wiki says "any combination of two keys are guaranteed to work, and some combinations of three or more keys will work, but others will not". IMO though, "2KRO" is not a perfectly useful distinction since it clumps things like Model Ms (and to be fair, a lot of cheaper keyboards) that in a lot of scenarios can handle more than 2 keys being pressed, with (for example) some Apple-Alps keyboards that can literally only handle any 2 keys (which is why you may hear people call the latter "hard 2KRO"), but it meaning "there's gonna be some blocking" is useful.

[Inxie]

I'm aware. That's why I still referred to it AS a 2-key rollover.

But the fact remains, no one brought up the elephant in the room.

[Muirium]

DT wiki says "any combination of two keys are guaranteed to work, and some combinations of three or more keys will work, but others will not". IMO though, "2KRO" is not a perfectly useful distinction…

True. Non n-key rollover comes in many shapes and varieties. For instance: my 122 key terminal Model M showed its lousy rollover so much I soon retired it. IBM didn't do nearly as good a job with its matrix as they did on my beloved SSKs. Modifiers, please!

As for Inxie's point: NKRO is certainly nice to have, but it's invisible: you only ever notice rollover when you've not got enough of it! A good Model M (can only really speak for regular IBM SSKs myself) is just fine in that department, despite its hard wired 2KRO. Only the terminal Ms have ever bothered me. That's one stealthy elephant.

No, it's the feel where M lets you down. The downgrade IBM took from F to M is anything but subtle.

[Entropia]

Which one would you choose, the Classic Style F104 in off-white/beige or in industrial gray?

[fohat]

off-white/beige or in industrial gray?

Industrial gray is a particularly handsome color, in my opinion.

[Entropia]

Yes, it was my initial choice. The photos on the website look quite ugly, more like brown rather than gray, but I understand the real color is closer to the original gray I can see from other photos of old industrial Model Ms.

[engr]

Is there a consensus on whether there is a noticeable difference in feel or sound between the 1st gen (silver badge) and the 2nd gen (grey badge) Model Ms?

I am seeing huge price differences between the two, and I am curious if it's just relative rarity or there is more to it.

[fohat]

Is there a consensus on whether there is a noticeable difference in feel or sound between the 1st gen (silver badge) and the 2nd gen (grey badge) Model Ms?

I think that the consensus is that the early ones are much "more collectible" .... The square metal badges are SO cool.

Personally, I have 2x 1390131s and I really like them, one is stock and one is heavily modded. Unfortunately I hardly ever use Ms since I started using Fs.

The most significant difference is the weight of the steel plate, and those weights were ratcheted down a few percent at a time over the years, and did not happen at the same time at all plants. Clickykeyboards has deep knowledge on this chronology.

Frankly, I would say that without a difference in weight, there is precious little difference between the labels and badges.

[Tribal]

I think a much bigger difference comes from age/use. The stems of keycaps get worn down, plastic rivets break, dust and gunk get built up, etc. You could probably restore a silver badge model to be better than a restored older model, but that might take a lot of work.

[Seirin-Blu]

All this talk about buckling springs and smaller form factors is making my mouth water for BS 40s.

There’s a Buckling Spring QAZ project that’s trudging along slowly, but what I’d be really interested in is a minivan-sized (12.75x4u) keyboard that uses buckling springs.

Oh well. For now I’ll stick with my white alps Minivan and salmon Le Chiffre

[Muirium]

minivan-sized (12.75x4u) keyboard

60% is small—15 × 5 units—so 12.75 × 4u should be even smaller. But a "minivan?"



Much too big! I think of my HHKB as roughly like a VW bug or a Mini, in keyboard terms. Which makes 40% more like…

[del20nd]

Hitting F3 is no harder than hitting # for me. Fn + 3 versus Shift + 3. Do you ever feel you need a dedicated # key? Or @ or $ or… etc.?

Not that I am immune to this idea, in legends at least!



Here's my real point: we all use layers. Shift is a layer! Even a battleship doesn't have a separate deck for CAPITAL LETTERS. We all accommodate Shift without a second's thought, and a navigation layer on a Function key works in just the same way. Keep it consistent and it's as natural as Shift. They're the same muscle in memory.

It all comes down to individual use cases and preference.

For the average writer or user, a 60% keyboard may make sense for its small footprint. In those cases you only have to use the F keys occasionally, just like you only have to type a # occasionally.

For other people working in certain fields, particularly those working with IDEs (developers) or complicated programs like video editing software and Photoshop, using the F keys is a fairly common occurrence. I personally have the most extreme version of this, working on legacy IBM mainframes that not only use F1-12, but also F13-24 (shift + F1-12.) To do my job without the F keys, I'd need to constantly be using double modifiers. An absolute non-starter. (Don't get me started on the recent laptop keyboard trend of hiding the F keys behind the Page Up, Page Down, Insert, and Delete keys. Absolutely the worst when Page Down can be that or F12, which is usually the button to cancel out of a menu in the IBM world.)

But even if you're not working a dinosaur job like me, there are plenty of fields which require extensive use of the function keys, and I can see not wanting them gone. Especially when they're hidden behind other keys you use extensively in applications. It gets really annoying really fast.

Plus, some people just like having the buttons.

[Muirium]

I must admit: I just like chording. I find it quicker than reaching out for single-function keys. It's the exact same flow we all know when we type capital letters: you just don't think of it, you "automatically" shift into uppercase with a little press of Shift.

Sure, you could have a whole second alpha block dedicated to UPPERCASE CHARACTERS but no one wants this. Not only would it make for a massive keyboard, but it would actively slow you down as you re-home on the other block, then back again. It breaks your flow.

A less contrived example is typing short numbers. Sure, you have a numpad laid out especially for numerics, but do you always use it? Even when you're typing 14 or 69 or what have you? There's a speed and flow cost in leaving the 60 block to head on over to it. Likely worth it for typing in a phone number, but certainly not for a quick 123. Basic numerics are right there, in the 60 block, and you needn't break away for them.

Now, I take it a level further than most—being so 60% positive—that I don't mind at all doing finger gymnastics like "Shift Alt Fn quote" for word selection and the like. Indeed, I use them heavily. (So much so that I've made macros to that effect as well.) Not everyone is comfortable with 60%, I get that and I’m not forcing it on anyone. But plenty of us are typing anything you can imagine on our compact keyboards, unfazed by the Fn experience! Indeed, some of us find there's true flow in it.

[guidemetothelight]

60% is small—15 × 5 units—so 12.75 × 4u should be even smaller. But a "minivan?"

I very much approve of your choice for an exemplary minivan

[vometia]

Ah, yucking people’s yums, as they say.

The thing about the Model M specifically is its monumental reputation. Set aside how it got it, and accepting the fact it’s there, the result is people with some existing mech experience often dismissing buckling spring entirely when they do encounter it and determine for themselves that the M stands for Meh. Quite fair of them really: your fingers do not lie. But they’re judging the debased, cost-cut, and worn tooled final resting state of the whole buckling spring odyssey. What Unicomp ships today has nothing on what IBM did in the early 1980s. Same name though, so it must be so.

Anyway, I quite agree a Unicomp mini Model M is an absolute gem of a starter for this hobby. It’s remarkably better than non-mechs, and will school you on all the differences at top speed. It’s also not an end game trap to kill your interest on the first go. Indeed, you’re well positioned to earn your addiction.

I dunno, I started with mechanical keyboards as they were just the standard in the early '80s; by the '90s, rubber monstrosities were becoming commonplace and I encountered my first M on a Dell Optiplex and thought it was the best thing I'd ever used (with the possible exception of a beam spring; but I wouldn't like to say for certain as that was 35 years ago). I knew nothing about keyboards at the time and afterwards continued to be annoyed by rubber domes until I bought a couple of SSKs pretty much by accident.

I've since moved on to MX reds partly because of the layout but mainly as they're quieter: the M kept the gf awake when I was on an overnight gaming bender, but she eventually nabbed one of the SSKs for herself. I could go back to the M now for rather depressing reasons (gf is no longer among us; PTSD took her) but seem to be too set in my ways, and the MX reds at least do an approximation of those early '80s keyboards. Which actually you suggested in the first place after my experience with blues (didn't like the clickiness, it felt a bit cheap to me) and Matias (liked them better, but too unreliable).

I apologise if I'm repeating myself. And likely not for the first time!