Modern switch closest to the Alps Salmon or Oranges switches in the AEK

[apastuszak]

I think my experiment with the AEK is over at this point. Between the typing problems I am having and the lack of individual modifier keys that can be programmed (I need to reprogram Right Control to be the Globe key), I need to look at something either more modern or PS/2 vintage.

I'd like to get something modern that has "Windows/Super" keys. But I'd like to get a switch that feels similar to the SKCM Salmon switches I am using now, or the SKCM Orange switches I have been hunting for.

Does anyone have any recommendations? I can find plenty of keyboards with hot swap chassis', so the real question is the switches.

[sliceoflemon]

I'm a long time lurker here but I only just recently got an account so I could contribute something back for all the knowledge I gleaned out of reading the posts here.

It might actually be possible to get what you want out of an AEK, but it takes a lot of work. I'm actually typing this on an AEK which I did a lot of stuff on to get it to the point I wanted :

- wax modded most of the switches because I wasn't happy with the scratchiness of some of the sliders
- paper modded more than half the switches to get rid of annoying "double click" effects on them
- lubed all the springs to get rid of spring ping
- used a form of plaster mod on all the keys with stabilisers to get rid of the annoying rattling (yes, there is a sane way to reattach those stabilisers without going crazy)
- retrobrited the hell out of the casing (it was severely yellow when I got it)

I'm using this through a self-built converter using TMK firmware through which I've got the alt and Mac keys remapped so they are swapped because I use this on a windows machine. TMK's firmware should allow you to remap nearly any keys you want.

In terms of modern-day keyboards, I can only comment on Matias keyboards, which use modern day alps clones for switches, as I'm not fond of cherry switch types and their clones. I've got both a Quiet Pro and a Tacticle Pro. The Quiet Pro has damped switches which are sort of similar to an AEK II's cream alps switches, while the Tacticle Pro, despite the name, has clicky switches. Neither comes close to the tactile orange or salmon switches of an AEK.

Others here will probably be able to point you to modern tactile alternatives but if you wish to go in that direction but maybe don't throw in the towel on your AEK so quickly. Vintage keyboards are usually not in the world's best condition and need quite a bit of work to get them right again.

[funkmon]

I can comment as well on the Matias. They're close, but not at the same level of tactility as in the AEK. However, Zeal Clickies are even _more_ tactile, albeit don't quite feel like Alps. They're fine, I've tried them, but Matias quiet pro are about the closest you're going to get, and they're just that: close. Not even very close. Just close.

Unless I'm missing something, I think sliceoflemon is exactly correct.

[Muirium]

maybe don't throw in the towel on your AEK so quickly. Vintage keyboards are usually not in the world's best condition and need quite a bit of work to get them right again.

Exactly. My various experiences with Matias switches have been disappointing indeed. They’re no comparison at all to complicated Alps. If you’ve read about simplified Alps, and how they in turn became Matias, then you’ll know why. Cost cutting hurts.

Other fine Alps keyboards are available besides (actually very ho hum) Apple keyboards. Many of them are NKRO, which will solve your modifier problems.

[apastuszak]

I own a Tactile Pro. Thought I don't find the switches as nice as those on this AEK, I think they're better than anything I have tried on the Cherry clone side of things.

The best Cherry clone switch I have ever used is the Boba U4T (now Gazeew U4T). As much as I like that switch, I'd rather use something ALPS. I prefer to type on my Tactile Pro.

I like clicky switches, but I prefer tactile ones and, sadly, Matias doesn't make a Tactile switch that isn't clicky.

I have quite a few Matias keyboards and am quite the "Matias fanboy."

As I look at their product line, I see that items are going out of stock and not coming back in stock. The full size Quiet Pro is gone from their website now. It wouldn't surprise me if they're working on something new. I wonder if it would be possible to make a hot swap socket that could take a Matias/Alps or a Cherry MX switch.

[Muirium]

I wonder if it would be possible to make a hot swap socket that could take a Matias/Alps or a Cherry MX switch.

Hybrid PCBs are definitely a thing. But it's not just the pins: Alps and MX have different plate geometries. Alps plates are closer to the PCB than MX plates, and the cutouts are different shapes as I recall.

A hybrid socket would have its work cut out!

[apastuszak]

I'm debating getting a full size keyboard with Gazeew U4T switches and cherry profile keycaps.

A Keychron K10 Pro, may be the way to go. I keep trying smaller form-factor keyboards and end up going back to a 100%.

[Muirium]

And yet:

The best Cherry clone switch I have ever used is the Boba U4T (now Gazeew U4T). As much as I like that switch, I'd rather use something ALPS.

Other fine Alps keyboards are also available. Especially in fullsize!

I think you should list out exactly what you're looking for in your next keyboard. Budget included. That may be the only stumbling block between you and a classic.

[engr]

Has anyone figured out a good way to modify Alps PCBs for hot-swapping? I think there was some discussion or even an IC years ago either here or on GH but I don't know what came out of it.

[funkmon]

And yet:

The best Cherry clone switch I have ever used is the Boba U4T (now Gazeew U4T). As much as I like that switch, I'd rather use something ALPS.

Other fine Alps keyboards are also available. Especially in fullsize!

I think you should list out exactly what you're looking for in your next keyboard. Budget included. That may be the only stumbling block between you and a classic.

Thread hijack

I don't mind simplified alps or Matias. I want a clicky full size or AT layout alps board with clean switches (ideally new, but I'll take what I can get) for $150. What do we reckon I can get? My upper limit on price is based on the fact that I know I can get NOS Acers for like 50 bucks and I don't mind the Acer switch.

What do we think is the best bet out there for this?

[apastuszak]

Ok, here is what I am looking for:

1. ALPS Orange or Salmon or similar tactile switches
2. 100% full size with Windows/Super keys.
3. Programmable, so either USB with QMK/VIAL or PS/2 with a Soarer's Converter
4. Separate left and right modifier keys, so I can program them individually

[Muirium]

$150? You got a time machine, maybe? That would help. My best scores were right in that range, but they were long ago.

You mean Acer switches like this?



This one was mine. The switches aren't modular like Alps, they're actually just clicker mechanisms over a membrane. The rollover wasn't good—that board would routinely block chorded mods and get in my way, unlike a (consumer) Model M—and I didn't much like the extra crunchy feel. Sold it at some point. Reasonably heavy construction and nice PBT caps though.

[funkmon]

$150? You got a time machine, maybe? That would help. My best scores were right in that range, but they were long ago.

You mean Acer switches like this?



This one was mine. The switches aren't modular like Alps, they're actually just clicker mechanisms over a membrane. The rollover wasn't good—that board would routinely block chorded mods and get in my way, unlike a (consumer) Model M—and I didn't much like the extra crunchy feel. Sold it at some point. Reasonably heavy construction and nice PBT caps though.

Ayup.

I like em just fine. They've still got an alps feel the way eating the patty from a McDonald's hamburger is similar to eating steak tenderloin. Not ideal but I'll take em. Acer -> simplified alps -> Matias -> good alps. I never had key rollover issues with mine. I just can't rationalize paying much more than 3x the cost of a NOS Acer for a slightly better switch. The Matias white apple boards annoy me but they're pretty much the only option and I already have 2.

[funkmon]

Ok, here is what I am looking for:

1. ALPS Orange or Salmon or similar tactile switches
2. 100% full size with Windows/Super keys.
3. Programmable, so either USB with QMK/VIAL or PS/2 with a Soarer's Converter
4. Separate left and right modifier keys, so I can program them individually

No exist. Pretty much Alps salmon and orange were dead by the time windows keys were on boards. You can dig up some Dell AT101s without Windows keys with salmons, so people say.

No true modern alternatives except Zeal Clickiez which are sharper and feel less similar than the Matias ones which you already don't like.

Honestly your best bet if you don't want to solder is to go to a university computer engineering lab with a hundred bucks, 2 AEKs and a Dell AT101W, and pay those kids to put the switches from the Apple boards into the Dell.

[engr]

I want a clicky full size or AT layout alps board with clean switches (ideally new, but I'll take what I can get) for $150. What do we reckon I can get?

You can get a NOS or a very clean beige Dell AT101W, but it will be tactile (black Alps), not clicky. Here's one that has already been partially click-modded.
Various boards with pine white Alps pop up on eBay for $100-150 every so often, sometimes in very good condition. Here is a FK-9000 with pine white Alps, near-NOS condition (except the calculator isn't fully functional, as is often the case with these). You can occasionally get a clean Omnikey with white Alps for $150-ish but it's not going to be NOS nor it is going to be a 101 layout (a clean Omnikey 101 is usually going to be $200 or more).

[Muirium]

Honestly your best bet if you don't want to solder is to go to a university computer engineering lab with a hundred bucks, 2 AEKs and a Dell AT101W, and pay those kids to put the switches from the Apple boards into the Dell.

Do that. Old Dell keyboards are better built than old Apple keyboards anyway, and Only Apple cheaped out on the NKRO!

You only need a single donor AEK. There will be plenty of keys on the Dell you never touch in a million years anyway: it’s full size.

[engr]

It's a shame KBParadise slopped selling the DIY Alps kit. That was a nice modern Alps platform for those who like the TKL-sized boards.

[apastuszak]

Honestly your best bet if you don't want to solder is to go to a university computer engineering lab with a hundred bucks, 2 AEKs and a Dell AT101W, and pay those kids to put the switches from the Apple boards into the Dell.

Do that. Old Dell keyboards are better built than old Apple keyboards anyway, and Only Apple cheaped out on the NKRO!

You only need a single donor AEK. There will be plenty of keys on the Dell you never touch in a million years anyway: it’s full size.

There was one thing I really liked about ADB, that was the pass-through ports. It wa/is very convenient to plug your mouse into your keyboard. Even now, I look for keyboards that have built in USB ports. As a trackball user, I prefer my pointing device wired. Since it's stationary, the wire does not get in the way like a mouse does. And since it's plugged in, I never have to worry about charging it.

[engr]

Some Omnikey boards had passthrough PS/2 ports though I am not sure how exactly they worked. Unfortunately, those versions did not have Windows keys.

[Polecat]

Some Omnikey boards had passthrough PS/2 ports though I am not sure how exactly they worked. Unfortunately, those versions did not have Windows keys.

The Northgates with multiple ports were Gen2 Plus and Ultra (and OmniMac) models. But there were revisions during the Gen2 time period and some of the Gen2 Pluses and Ultras did not have the multiple porrs. The ones that did had a single PS/2 port and two ADB ports, not multiple PS/2 ports. The ADB ports presumably worked as a pass through like on a Mac ADB keyboard.

The ADB ports were gone by the time the Gen3 models came out, and Windows keys weren't introduced until Gen4. It's remotely possible there were some oddball transition models, but I've documented about 800 Northgates now and I haven't seen any crossovers on those particular features.

[apastuszak]

Some Omnikey boards had passthrough PS/2 ports though I am not sure how exactly they worked. Unfortunately, those versions did not have Windows keys.

I didn't think PS/2 supported daisy chaining.

IIRC, motherboards had 2 PS/2 ports and one was for keyboard and one for mouse. I don't think the two were interchangeable.

[Polecat]

Ok, here is what I am looking for:

1. ALPS Orange or Salmon or similar tactile switches
2. 100% full size with Windows/Super keys.
3. Programmable, so either USB with QMK/VIAL or PS/2 with a Soarer's Converter
4. Separate left and right modifier keys, so I can program them individually

One possible option is an ABS M1. Those came with black tactile Alps clone switches (Fuhua?) and are solidly built. A set of Tai Hao keycaps and maybe some different switches should still come in well under $150. I think I paid $10 on ebay for one of mine and $20 for the other.

viewtopic.php?p=492955#p492955

[Polecat]

Thread hijack

I don't mind simplified alps or Matias. I want a clicky full size or AT layout alps board with clean switches (ideally new, but I'll take what I can get) for $150. What do we reckon I can get? My upper limit on price is based on the fact that I know I can get NOS Acers for like 50 bucks and I don't mind the Acer switch.

What do we think is the best bet out there for this?

I'll sell you an AT101W with Matias clicky switches for what I paid for it, $100. I bought it a few years back from a member here, just to see what those switches were like. It has about 3 hours of use in total, slightly yellowed but clean otherwise.

[funkmon]

Thread hijack

I don't mind simplified alps or Matias. I want a clicky full size or AT layout alps board with clean switches (ideally new, but I'll take what I can get) for $150. What do we reckon I can get? My upper limit on price is based on the fact that I know I can get NOS Acers for like 50 bucks and I don't mind the Acer switch.

What do we think is the best bet out there for this?

I'll sell you an AT101W with Matias clicky switches for what I paid for it, $100. I bought it a few years back from a member here, just to see what those switches were like. It has about 3 hours of use in total, slightly yellowed but clean otherwise.

Now we're talking. I'll PM you.

[sliceoflemon]

Honestly your best bet if you don't want to solder is to go to a university computer engineering lab with a hundred bucks, 2 AEKs and a Dell AT101W, and pay those kids to put the switches from the Apple boards into the Dell.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the difference between the black and orange alps mostly comes down to the slider, click leaf and possibly the spring isn't it? Wouldn't it then be simpler to switch (no pun intended) those between the Dell AT101W switches and the ones in the AEK and achieve the same thing?

[sliceoflemon]

Ok, here is what I am looking for:

1. ALPS Orange or Salmon or similar tactile switches
2. 100% full size with Windows/Super keys.
3. Programmable, so either USB with QMK/VIAL or PS/2 with a Soarer's Converter
4. Separate left and right modifier keys, so I can program them individually

Curiously, why not consider TMK for a converter as well? Remapping is a matter of using his online keymap editor, saving the file and uploading it to the converter :

http://www.tmk-kbd.com/tmk_keyboard/edi ... p/?adb_usb

It can't be done in software, if that is what you want though.

[Muirium]

Curiously, why not consider TMK for a converter as well? Remapping is a matter of using his online keymap editor, saving the file and uploading it to the converter :

http://www.tmk-kbd.com/tmk_keyboard/edi ... p/?adb_usb

It can't be done in software, if that is what you want though.

The merged left and right Alts on the AEK are the problem. (No NKRO.) There's no recovering that signal once it's merged by the keyboard's controller.

I'd be tempted to pull the AEK's conveniently socketed controller chip and install my own *controller* to remove such obstacles. Then I'd remember that the problem may in fact be the matrix on the PCB and scratch my head…

Here's a handy thread about the ISO AEK II matrix, which looks like this:

Code: Select all

        1       2       3       4       5       6       7       8       9       10      11      12      13      14      15      16
r1      n9      --      NUMLK   SCRLK   PRTSC   F12     F10     F9      F2      F3      ESC     F1      F6      F7      F4      F5
r2      n/      n8      --      PAUSE   PGUP    BSP     F11     a0      a2      a3      <       a1      a7      F8      a4      a6
r3      n*      n7      --      --      PGDN    '       ´       O       --      --      §       --      a8      a9      a5      T
r4      n-      n6      --      --      END     HOME    Å       a+      --      --      --      --      --      --      G       Y
r5      n3      n5      RIGHT   --      DEL     INS     ~       P       W       E       TAB     Q       I       K       R       --
r6      nENTER  n4      --      --      UP      RETURN  Ä       Ö       --      D       --      --      --      L       --      U
r7      --      n+      --      LEFT    --      .       a-      ,       --      --      A       S       H       J       F       B
r8      --      --      n,      DOWN    n2      n1      n0      M       X       C       --      Z       --      N       V       SPACE

        *1      *2      *3      *4      *5      *6      *7      *8
r9      LALT    LGUI    LSHIFT  LCTRL   CPLK    RSHIFT  RCTRL   RWIN

Note the modifiers are separate from the main matrix. I hoped Apple would have separated the Alts at least on ISO, but there you go. Here's the ANSI AEK II version.

In fact, now I remember mapping out the original Macintosh M0110 keyboard matrix myself, which is even worse:

Spoiler:

They've been merging left and right modifiers since the beginning.

[apastuszak]

Is there a use-case for average people not to have their modifiers merged?

[Muirium]

Correct! In general, there is no functional difference between left and right Shift etc., and the average user would give you a very strange look indeed if you tried to tell them there was!

Now, those of us freaky enough to define our own keyboard combos for things—let alone build keyboards and converters ourselves—can and do make use of the distinct scan-codes for left and right modifiers. My beloved Shift+Shift=Caps Lock macro is just one example. I’m pleased the distinction is real, and I miss it when the occasional *cough* Apple *cough* keyboard denies it.

But then there's Alt Gr, as you've encountered. In ISO: left and right Alt are different. I suspect the need to distinguish that is what led to separate scan-codes for all modifiers.


Re: AEK I. Apple didn't even bother with an ISO version, or printing Alt Gr on the right Option key. Take a look:



By the AEK II, they did remember ISO. But despite remembering the Alt Gr sub-legend on the right, internally the modifiers are merged…



That's not the only goof about the AEKs. See those Num Lock and Scroll Lock LEDs? They indicate states which don't exist on the Mac, so would never light. They seem to have been intended as PC compatible, yet the AEK is of course ADB so couldn't connect to a PC with the use for them.

[apastuszak]

Do all Dell AT 101W keyboard have black ALPS switches?

I various prices for these all over the place, and I'm wondering if there is a rubber dome variant floating around and that's why it's so cheap.