Alps Appreciation

[hellothere]

My newest frankenboard. Dell AT101W. Swapped out black Alps with salmon Alps switches. Grey painted case, w/matte clear enamel finish. New double-shot Tai-Hao blue & grey keycaps. Waxboil. Paper mod. If you squint, you can see the key mounting plate. Sanded, repainted with hammered black paint. Matte clear enamel finish.

Spoiler:

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I polished off the white mark in the lower left of the keyboard before I posted this on ebait -- and before I destroyed my camera lens. It amuses me that the grey finish I added is robust enough to scratch some other surface.

I bought the black caps lock key from Tai-Hao, separately from the blue & grey key cap set. Dells have that funky stepped caps lock key and Tai-Hao didn't have one in the correct color.

[engr]

New double-shot Tai-Hao blue & grey keycaps.

How did you stabilize the spacebar? When I tried Matias stabs, the spacebar became wobbly in yaw direction.

[hellothere]

New double-shot Tai-Hao blue & grey keycaps.

How did you stabilize the spacebar? When I tried Matias stabs, the spacebar became wobbly in yaw direction.

The Dell spacebar has two "guide pillars" on it and those fit into two plastic "sockets" on the keyboard. That makes spacebar wobbling almost non-existant. A lot of keyboards used one or two of these pillars and sockets. Omnikeys and Apple Standard Keyboards come to mind. The Tai-Hao spacebar cap doesn't have them: the space where the pillar would be is a cross-mount hook (or, in Tai-Hao terms, a "fixed stem") socket.

I used the hooks, loops, and stabilizer wire from a set I bought from Tai-Hao and they work better than using the Dell parts, but it's still wobbly. The proper solution would probably be to dye the Dell space bar and use that and the sockets, but I've got no experience dying stuff. I did some preliminary investigation into dying plastic and found too many chemicals hazardous to my or my animals' health. I'm still interested in learning, though.

I don't think that brand new Tai-Hao Alps sets that came out either this year or late last year have spacebars with the pillars. There's nothing on the Tai-Hao website that says anything one way or another.

[Polecat]

My newest frankenboard. Dell AT101W. Swapped out black Alps with salmon Alps switches. Grey painted case, w/matte clear enamel finish. New double-shot Tai-Hao blue & grey keycaps.

That looks really nice. The color combo works much better than I ever would have expected. Yummy.

[Polecat]

How did you stabilize the spacebar? When I tried Matias stabs, the spacebar became wobbly in yaw direction.

There are some guide posts out there that poke into an MX mount. I added one to a Tai Hao spacebar by gluing a carved down MX cap to the bottom side. You have to get it exactly right, location and angle. I got lucky, it worked perfectly the first time. Some spacebars have two, but one is enough.

viewtopic.php?p=506791#p506791

[Wolfi77W]

Trio of white alps boards, all SKCM of the pine variety. Different brands but in some way or somehow related to one another







Albums on imgur containing some more photos of the respective boards:

Proxellent PK-Prox V2
https://imgur.com/a/vly1eb5

Focus FK-3001
https://imgur.com/a/95vCl5a

Northgate OmniKey/101-I
https://imgur.com/a/FhIhU85

The Northgate and Proxellent looks to be in pristine condition aside from some small rust spots on the Northgate's plate. The Focus unfortunately isn't in good condition. Some uneven yellowing on the board and keycaps, and there's a large spot of rust on the mounting plate. As for the calculator, it's a bit flaky. It displays a few digits just fine but it will only partially show parts of the digits when there's too many of them on the display.

Detailed write-up on my opinion of the keyfeel of the different boards. Put it in spoilers to avoid the post being too long for those who aren't interested with my opinion on the keyfeel.

Spoiler:

The difference in keyfeel is interesting. The Focus is unsurprisingly the worst of the bunch, some binding and scratchiness on off center key presses, inconsistent click and tactility. Some were chattering and some others required an altering of the contact leaves to bring back to life. Now the Proxellent and Northgate is one where there's a noticeable difference in keyfeel despite both appearing in clean condition. The Northgate I'd rate at 9 or even 10/10 whilst the Proxellent I'd rate around 6 or 7/10.

The Proxellent is still pretty nice overall, but it feels a bit dry and rough in comparison to the Northgate. The tactility and click isn't as consistent across the board too, but that could just be due to how it was stored through the years, and the tactility just doesn't feel as refined as the tactility on the Northgate. With the Northgate, I feel there's a gradual smooth build up before the click leaf gives way, gradual and smooth enough that I can just press softly and let go well before bottoming out whilst the proxellent feels a bit clunky and more often than not requires more force which leads to harder bottoming out or missed keypresses from misjudging how much force I need to overcome the tactility.

Now as Polecat has explained to me in a different thread, this is most likely because of the age difference of the White Alps switches on my different boards. And based on looking up the FCC ID on my Proxellent board (IANPROXPROV2), there could be a 3 or 4 year age gap between my Proxellent (1993 or later based on when the FCC ID was filed), and my Northgate which based on the serial number indicates it was processed and added to Northgate's inventory around February 1990, and thus probably manufactured late in 1989 or early in 1990.

The Proxellent is, with up to 28 programmable keys (all 24 f-keys plus diagonal arrow keys) pretty versatile when compared with other battlecruisers of its time. As a bonus, having it in ProX/macro mode doesn't get in the way of using most of the normal keys (pressing scroll lock is required to go into programming mode) so the only hassle aside from initial programming is having to press RCTRL+RALT+Prox/Numpad 5 to activate the macro mode. Massive thanks to June Bug for sharing a photo of the manual with instructions on programming the macro keys on a comment in his youtube video, wouldn't have been able to use it to its full potential otherwise.

June bug's video here:

EDIT: Forgot to mention the Proxellent is NKRO.

[Muirium]

They're all handsome boards. The fact they coordinate so well with each other is largely due to the beige monoculture of the era, which these boards showcase very favourably indeed. If only everything from then was so easy on the eyes.

[del20nd]

Last week at the thrift store, I came across this thermal typewriter, a Sharp "Intelliwriter" PA-1000H, which has Alps SKCL greens with some nice doubleshot keycaps:





I've been typing with this little guy for a week, and can see why these switches are so popular.

Compared to Cherry MX Reds, which is where most of my linear switch experience is, they just feel more... accurate, I guess? It's hard to describe exactly why, but despite them feeling superficially similar I find myself making less typos on Alps greens than MX reds.

If I had to try to nail it down, the travel seems just a little too far on the reds, and it somehow throws me off. Makes me just a tiny bit less sure of a keypress, which throws me off. The Alps greens seem to have a perfect throw, encouraging you to just barely bottom out the switch, and maybe there's just a little bit of tactility somewhere in the throw. Not enough where you really percieve it while typing, but just enough to unconsciously know you've completed a key press.

As far as smoothness goes, there's less difference than I thought. The reds are maybe a touch scratchier, but it's not night and day. Which makes it all the more difficult to pinpoint why I'm typing so much better with the greens.

I wouldn't say that I like SKCL greens better than my Model F. And I'd also say that I've used contactless reed switches that are smoother. But the Alps greens are damn pleasant to type on, and I certainly won't be passing up opportunities to buy other early Alps switches.



On the keyboard itself: I've seen that allot of people mod these for the board, and there's good reason behind that, but honestly I'm kinda digging the whole typewriter thing at the moment. In fact, I bought this machine for the thermal typer aspect, and discovered the switches later. Not too big of a surprise that somebody who loves mechanical keyboards might also have a small typewriter collection.

I'm thinking the fact that thermal typewriters were a flash in the pan, obsolete after just a couple years when computers got good enough to do real word processing (meaning this probably had light use), and that this has an integrated dust cover are the only reasons that these notoriously fragile switches stayed so nice in the first place.

I'll probably use this machine as-is until something physically fails on the typewriter itself, and it's unfixable, then maybe harvest the board at that point. It has some merits just staying intact if you're a writer, though. The thing takes 4 D-cells and just types page after page using that lovely keyboard. I've been using the same set of batteries for a week and it just keeps going. You can have it print by line or even by page, so you can correct mistakes unlike with a manual typewriter, and the print action is cllear, accurate and snappy. It's a great journaling and drafting machine, almost like using an Alphasmart, but with a "real keyboard" and paper output. At most, I might explore the possibility of a non-destructive keyboard mod, so I could plug it into a PC if I really wanted, but keep the rest of the machine intact. It does have a serial interface, so that might be possible.

[kshopper2084]

Very cool.

[engr]

After years of trying to get some of my Focus keyboards to work with various PS2-to-USB converters, I contacted Hagstrom Electonics, and they created a custom version of their KE-XTUSB converter that deals with quirks of Focus boards, such as a non-standard key code for F7 and weird signal timing.

If you want this specific version, get this model and ask for a Custom KE-XTUSB-M291 model under special order notes. It's not the cheapest, but it's the only thing that fully works with my FK-8000 and FK-555, and the customer support has been great (they didn't charge me anything for diagnostics and upgrade, I just paid shipping costs).

Note: this converter may not work with your KVM switch. If you run into any issues, try a passthrough USB port for peripherials (that's what I ended up doing with my Level1Tech switch), and if that does not work, plug it straight into the computer's USB port.

[engr]

Does anyone have experience transplanting Alps into a KBParadise V80 Keyboard?
I have one with Matias clicky switches, and I want to try transplanting some NOS white or blue Alps into it. Unfortunately, KBParadise no longer sells DYI kits for these.

[Delta Research]

Does anyone have experience transplanting Alps into a KBParadise V80 Keyboard?
I have one with Matias clicky switches, and I want to try transplanting some NOS white or blue Alps into it. Unfortunately, KBParadise no longer sells DYI kits for these.

I've done this on my own V80, but it was annoying to desolder all of the matias switches since they used crappy solder. A good solder gun or lots of flux will get the job done though. The board's held together with clips and one screw, so you'll need something thin to open it up.

[engr]

I've done this on my own V80, but it was annoying to desolder all of the matias switches since they used crappy solder. A good solder gun or lots of flux will get the job done though. The board's held together with clips and one screw, so you'll need something thin to open it up.

Ah, clips. That's what I was afraid of. I have some plastic prying tools but I am still nervous about breaking these.
I have a desoldering gun but I prefer Solderwick. Takes longer but it's more gentle.
Which Alps did you solder instead of Matias switches? How was the sound?

[Delta Research]

I soldered in some frankenswitch alps (bamboo whites with matias quiet click leaf). It doesn't sound the greatest but after a tape mod it sounds decent. The clips don't really feel like they would break easily, they're not fragile like some older alps boards.

[Vito300]

Does anyone have experience transplanting Alps into a KBParadise V80 Keyboard?
I have one with Matias clicky switches, and I want to try transplanting some NOS white or blue Alps into it. Unfortunately, KBParadise no longer sells DYI kits for these.

If you're decent with a solder sucker and a soldering iron you'll be alright. They are a bit of a pain honestly, the solder they use is tin junk. I just heated the solder, sucked it up, then soldered the joints again with good leaded solder, then sucked up that. You still end up with pins that want to stick to the pads with the most minute amount of solder, that's where I struggled the most, solder wick and flux didn't help much for whatever reason.

Here's the product though, I felt that it was worth the trouble. When I built it a few years ago there weren't any real options for custom alps boards like there are now.

[engr]

I've done this on my own V80, but it was annoying to desolder all of the matias switches since they used crappy solder.

They are a bit of a pain honestly, the solder they use is tin junk. I just heated the solder, sucked it up, then soldered the joints again with good leaded solder, then sucked up that.

Wow, you guys weren't kidding, that solder is horrible. With tons of flux and a good tin-lead solder, it looked like I got it all out, but unfortunately small amounts of it were still inside the copper through-hole sockets, so once I pulled the switches out, pieces of these sockets came out with them...

So now I have three switches that don't register (not the switches themselves, but their locations on the PCB).
What's funny is that the PCB traces look perfectly well connected to the pads on both sides.

Ugh. Is my board toast now, or is there a way to fix those through-holes?

[Delta Research]

You can solder in jumper wires directly to the switch legs, I've done it before on a couple of boards with dead pads.

[engr]

You can solder in jumper wires directly to the switch legs, I've done it before on a couple of boards with dead pads.

Thank you. I traced the connectors on both sides and got all the keys to work except for the Menu key, no matter how hard I tried. And then I realized that on this keyboard it was programmed as a Function key.

The result is honestly not bad. Out of the box, with no foam etc. it's not the best-sounding Alps keyboard, but not the worst either. With two layers of PE foam it sounds pretty nice.

[kshopper2084]

Very cool. I still use my Matias Ergo pro w/ Salmon ALPS switches daily and have for years now.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23000

[sd8450]

Hi! I am new here and registered to post and share my appreciation of an old Alps keyboard I bought a few months ago. The keyboard is a Tai-Hao Fame 5539-5.

It is yellowed but quite clean for its age. It has a steel bottom plate and steel switch plate and relatively heavy for a compact keyboard.

The keyboard works with no issues testing it in MSWord and in MSExcel on a Windows 10 PC with no PS/2 port. I used a Belkin F5U119-E PS/2 to USB converter together with a DIN to PS/2 adapter cable.

I am into retro PCs for a few years now and this is one of my lucky finds and very happy with it. All the pictures below and on Imgur album show the condition of the keyboard as I got it.

ALBUM: https://imgur.com/a/LOU4FhO

[thefarside]

Very nice keyboard! I like the Focus layout and function key label. I wonder if it was made by the same manufacturer as Focus?

[SHAGUAR]

thought I'd add onto this. I love alps, and have tons of boards with them. none can beat my newest addition however, of a DC-3014.

[engr]

Nice. 3014 is such a great board: blue Alps, sturdy chassis, a roomy case that amplifies sound, ANSI layout… one day I am hoping to get one and outfit it with key caps from SGI Granite.

[sd8450]

Very nice keyboard! I like the Focus layout and function key label. I wonder if it was made by the same manufacturer as Focus?

Thank you!

I also really like the aesthetics of the Focus layout. I personally prefer the BAE key over the straight ANSI Enter key on my modern office-style keyboards. It is easier to hit and its big size and unique shape serve as a reference for me to locate adjacent keys on that side of the keyboard.

The experts here established links between Focus and Northgate but no similar link between Focus and Tai-Hao.

[Polecat]

That is a great find and a beautiful keyboard. The weird curved case threw me the first time I saw one in person. I had to look at it a long time to convince myself it was actually built that way on purpose.

The stabilizer on the spacebar looks like an early Focus one, but the stabilizer and guide pin on the BAE key is quite unique (at least to me). Nothing like Focus or Northgate. It's likely that many of the Taiwanese keyboard manufacturers shared suppliers, but I don't know if anyone today knows exactly who built what. Tai Hao is still around, and mostly sells keycap sets. Northgate was a U.S. reseller that sold keyboards and computer systems built by other companies, including Focus, even though they designed the later keyboards themselves. Focus has or had an assembly plant in Taiwan and later China (and a few keyboards that were labelled "Assembly in U.S.A.") but they probably bought at least some of their parts from other manufacturers. So these companies did different things, in different places. To learn the whole story we need to learn who actually manufactured the different pieces and parts, and who assembled them into an actual product, and then who put their name on them and (re)sold them?

For instance, I just found a reference to "Staff", a name which appeared on some early Monterey keyboards. Turns out that was a marketing name used by Monterey themselves, for computer systems as well as keyboards, in "more than 40 countries worldwide", from about 1984 to 1987. We had wondered about that here in the past, but I finally found an official explanation. The same reference says that Monterey would put a different brand name on their products for remarketing companies who were interested.

edit: the "Staff" info is from the _1987 APC Hardware Buyers Guide_

https://archive.org/stream/apc_1987_har ... e_djvu.txt

"MONTEREY INTERNATIONAL CORP., established since
1977, is a well-known manufacturer & exporter of computer
& keyboard, as well as a reliable importer of a wide range of
computer parts; components and peripherals. Over the past
3 years, we have concentraded in providing computer
products under the brand name of "STAFF" to more than 40
countries all over the world, the feedback of our superior
goodwill; advanced products and service is a rapid growth of
annual turnover year after year. {Growth-up rate is 457o-l 18%
since 1982)."

(That's probably supposed to read "...45% to 118%...")
...
"If you are a importer of computer products and are interested
in finding a good supplier in Taiwan, MONTEREY is your right
choice! From SKD; fully assembled or even with your own
brand name, we are able to support you for a mutual successful
business "
...

"MONTEREY'S KEYBOARDS^

A variety of intelligent keyboards are available in most of
the European languages, featured with mechanical excellent
tactile feeling keyswitch; DIN standard super slim low-profile
design: double injection keytop; PC/AT/XT switchable
compatible

STAFF-K101- 101 keys.

STAFF-K9AX- 105 keys.

STAFF-K8AX— 84 keys. "

Thank you!

I also really like the aesthetics of the Focus layout. I personally prefer the BAE key over the straight ANSI Enter key on my modern office-style keyboards. It is easier to hit and its big size and unique shape serve as a reference for me to locate adjacent keys on that side of the keyboard.

The experts here established links between Focus and Northgate but no similar link between Focus and Tai-Hao.

[Muirium]

Have you got a link to that reference, Polecat?

Great board, btw. Blue Alps truly sing in a solid chassis.

[Polecat]

Sure, it's here, about 1/4 of the way through.

https://archive.org/stream/apc_1987_har ... e_djvu.txt

edit: I've copied the exact quotes to the reply above.

[sd8450]

That is a great find and a beautiful keyboard. The weird curved case threw me the first time I saw one in person. I had to look at it a long time to convince myself it was actually built that way on purpose.

The stabilizer on the spacebar looks like an early Focus one, but the stabilizer and guide pin on the BAE key is quite unique (at least to me). Nothing like Focus or Northgate. It's likely that many of the Taiwanese keyboard manufacturers shared suppliers, but I don't know if anyone today knows exactly who built what. Tai Hao is still around, and mostly sells keycap sets. Northgate was a U.S. reseller that sold keyboards and computer systems built by other companies, including Focus, even though they designed the later keyboards themselves. Focus has or had an assembly plant in Taiwan and later China (and a few keyboards that were labelled "Assembly in U.S.A.") but they probably bought at least some of their parts from other manufacturers. So these companies did different things, in different places. To learn the whole story we need to learn who actually manufactured the different pieces and parts, and who assembled them into an actual product, and then who put their name on them and (re)sold them?

For instance, I just found a reference to "Staff", a name which appeared on some early Monterey keyboards. Turns out that was a marketing name used by Monterey themselves, for computer systems as well as keyboards, in "more than 40 countries worldwide", from about 1984 to 1987. We had wondered about that here in the past, but I finally found an official explanation. The same reference says that Monterey would put a different brand name on their products for remarketing companies who were interested.

edit: the "Staff" info is from the _1987 APC Hardware Buyers Guide_

https://archive.org/stream/apc_1987_har ... e_djvu.txt

"MONTEREY INTERNATIONAL CORP., established since
1977, is a well-known manufacturer & exporter of computer
& keyboard, as well as a reliable importer of a wide range of
computer parts; components and peripherals. Over the past
3 years, we have concentraded in providing computer
products under the brand name of "STAFF" to more than 40
countries all over the world, the feedback of our superior
goodwill; advanced products and service is a rapid growth of
annual turnover year after year. {Growth-up rate is 457o-l 18%
since 1982)."

(That's probably supposed to read "...45% to 118%...")
...
"If you are a importer of computer products and are interested
in finding a good supplier in Taiwan, MONTEREY is your right
choice! From SKD; fully assembled or even with your own
brand name, we are able to support you for a mutual successful
business "
...

"MONTEREY'S KEYBOARDS^

A variety of intelligent keyboards are available in most of
the European languages, featured with mechanical excellent
tactile feeling keyswitch; DIN standard super slim low-profile
design: double injection keytop; PC/AT/XT switchable
compatible

STAFF-K101- 101 keys.

STAFF-K9AX- 105 keys.

STAFF-K8AX— 84 keys. "

Thank you Polecat!

As far as I know the spacebar has the more common Cherry type stabilizer.

The BAE key stabilzer appears to be a Costar type. It has the Costar cross-type hook to attach under the keycaps. Tai-Hao however used the smaller Alps type bottom hook to snap in to the switch plate instead of the bigger Costar type bottom hook.

Though the keyboard works fine as it is now, I plan to get 10 pcs each of the above top and bottom hooks and 5 pcs 2u wires to complete the stabilizers later.

I am a newbie so could not comment on the interlinkages between the keyboard makers as of now.

[sd8450]

Have you got a link to that reference, Polecat?

Great board, btw. Blue Alps truly sing in a solid chassis.

Thank you Muirium!

I was expecting the keyboard to have Tai-Hao Aruz switches because of its serial number and seeing the examples of TH-5539-5 on Deskthority. This is when I was waiting for the keycap puller I ordered online to arrive. It was a pleasant surprise finding out it has Blue Alps and how clean it is considering the age.

[Polecat]

Thank you for the information on the stabilizers. Early Focus (and Northgate) keyboards had a BAE key with a horizontal Alps-style (rectangular inserts) stabilizer wire, and a guide pin on the upper part of the key. Later Focus (but not Northgate) keyboards had two stabilizer wires on the BAE--one vertical, and one horizontal, and no guide pin. That change was sometime between 1989 and 1991. I've never seen a BAE like yours on any other keyboard.

The early Focus and Northgate keyboards used a Cherry style stabilizer on the spacebar like yours, but that was changed to an Alps style setup around 1988-1989. As much as we want this stuff to be simple, it just isn't the case.

If it helps, Tai Hao sells an Alps style stabilizer kit for a very reasonable price, and their customer service is absolutely first class.

Thank you Polecat!

As far as I know the spacebar has the more common Cherry type stabilizer.

The BAE key stabilzer appears to be a Costar type. It has the Costar cross-type hook to attach under the keycaps. Tai-Hao however used the smaller Alps type bottom hook to snap in to the switch plate instead of the bigger Costar type bottom hook.

Though the keyboard works fine as it is now, I plan to get 10 pcs each of the above top and bottom hooks and 5 pcs 2u wires to complete the stabilizers later.

I am a newbie so could not comment on the interlinkages between the keyboard makers as of now.