F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[pilcher]

The shipping container was loaded today! Over 5 tons! This is the 5th container shipment of the various keyboard projects.

This time we have all the Model M style F104/FSSK and various other parts and key sets. The F122 and Round 2 beam spring keyboards will be on the next container shipment in the next couple months once they are completed.

As with the previous container shipments we have some photos of the loading. This one was too big for the 20' but the 40' container was not completely packed like last time. Hopefully it will be loaded on a ship departing later this week if all goes well.

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Please let us know the name of the ship, when it gets loaded. Nothing like hitting refresh on MarineTraffic 30 times per day!

[Ellipse]

pilcher are you involved in the shipping industry? That is one of the sites I have used to track the container shipments.

Sorry I don't disclose the shipping specifics but the container is now at sea and expected to arrive to me in the second half of next month.

[JezmondoUK]

I'm new here (so a bit lost). Where do I ask for help with my modelfkeyboards F77 (HHKB)? (assuming this isn't the right place - can someone point me the right way?)

(On the off chance that this IS the right place... description of problem and steps taken follow)

Some of the keys produced two keypresses... "3" produced "3r" and "r" did the same (for example).

What I did: Disassembled the keyboard, checking for electrical bridges. Found none, I looked at both sides of the board. All to no avail. Then reassembled keyboard, functioned as before.

Then loaded the pandrew software and accidentally erased the firmware (setup obviously had multiple keyboards - as one wasn't working and I forgot about the mouse connected to the Launch keyboard and put the keyboard down on the mouse).

Now I'm stuck. I am using an old (very old) Mac, but I can use a Linux AMD system or Intel Windows 11 (whatever gets the job done).

Any help gratefully received (even if that is pointing me at the right place to post questions).

[Ellipse]

JezmondoUK it sounds like you did not fully review the manual and hour-long setup video on the project website before setting up your keyboard. You could have possibly saved a couple hours.

The manual explains specifically what to do when multiple keys are activated with one key press (hint: tightening the grounding screws and replacing the springs of all affected keys usually fixes this issue, at least in my own experience). Also you may want to use the pandrew utility's signal level monitor as noted there. If all the keys on one column increase the values of the adjacent column then there is likely a solder bridge on the controller end of the ribbon cable, on the controller itself, or on the large capacitive PCB end, but this is unlikely.

I don't believe it is possible to erase the firmware with the pandrew utility. You may have just clicked enter bootloader. Unplugging the keyboard and plugging it back in will bring back the keyboard if that is all that you pressed in the pandrew utility. If the firmware was erased you can reload the firmware with the bat file linked to in the manual.

[Rayndalf]

If someone actually spent a couple minutes testing these boards before shipping them out that'd save you a couple hours too

Replacing springs usually requires popping the barrel and backplate assembly apart. Springs can be fragile and reattaching springs on flippers while a board is assembled can be difficult without the right tools/technique.

[engr]

Not sure if anyone has encountered it before, but Malwarebytes thinks that the F77 utility (pandrew-util-for-vial_r4.exe) is a malware (Malware.Heuristic.2513). Ellipse, you may want to check to make sure the the version on your web site is clean, and if so, contact Malwarebytes so they update their databases and stop flagging it.

[Ellipse]

As a note all keyboards are tested before shipping, but the specific issues mentioned require installing and setting up the keyboards including installing the key sets, so they cannot be caught beforehand.

[Rayndalf]

Your boards are shipped fully assembled now, right?

It's pretty hard to test a board without caps and shipping a buckling spring board capless seems risky. Unicomp refuses to even sell keyboards/keyboard assemblies without keycaps. They consider the risk of damage too high.

[Meowmaritus]

As a note all keyboards are tested before shipping, but the specific issues mentioned require installing and setting up the keyboards including installing the key sets, so they cannot be caught beforehand.

Even if you are shipping buckling spring keyboards with no caps (which is dangerous because the springs can get mangled in shipping extremely easily), you can install a set of keycaps on it to test for basic operation. You are shipping a multiple hundred dollar enthusiast luxury product, so it needs to work out of the box. I'm really not sure why you refuse to test your products before shipping them, it's baffling, really.

[Ellipse]

Yes the keyboards are fully assembled except for the bumpers and key sets. The keyboards are tested before shipping both at the factory and by me before it goes out; installing keys is not required for testing thanks to pandrew's signal level monitor which catches many but not all potential pcb issues.

Installing and removing keys, as well as permanently installing unprinted keys, was tried but it added a month or more of delay and it did not improve reliability, because things can still be bounced out of place and sometimes damaged during shipping. Permanently installing the dozens of available key sets would also significantly multiply the hundreds of current variations that have been made, so it would not be feasible for this project. With a larger operation selling thousands of keyboards each year and having the factory ship things out directly this would be doable but the project is far smaller than that.

Regarding things working right away out of the box, that is not the project philosophy or how the project was envisioned. Besides the logistical issues noted above, the project's goal is to highlight the importance of learning how to set up and maintain your keyboard so that you can use it for many years long after the project has ended, as described further in the manual. Now everyone will become familiar with how to set up and fix small issues with their keyboard because they went through the setup video at the start of their new Model F usage and I am hopeful that this will help more people to feel confident enough to fix issues on their own without discarding the keyboard many years from now.

[JezmondoUK]

You are right - after unplugging the correct keyboard(doh!) it works as before.

Here's what I tried (I didn't mention this last time - as I thought I had a new problem). While disassembled I took one of the flippers (the one from the correctly working spacebar) and placed it on the positions of the double typing keys - and they double typed - just as they had when the keyboard was initially assembled. This is what made me suspect there was a solder bridge. However, after inspection I can't find one. Here are the keys effected (as I can now produce a proper list!)

3 -> 3r
5 -> 5y
7 -> 7i
9 -> 9p
- -> -[
\ -> \]
q -> qw
w- > qw
r -> 3r
y -> 5y
i -> 7i
p -> 9p
[ -> -[
] -> \]

I think keys on the right also have problems in the top two rows - but I have no idea how these are actually setup. For some reason keyboard viewer doesn't show anything (I suspect it is looking at the working keyboard).

Any ideas? I did watch the video - and I thought I'd followed it. However, I might be in "idiot mode" currently!

Thanks for any pointers.

[Ellipse]

Great JezmondoUK; glad you got everything working! Often the cap sense keyboards need to settle a bit for the first time they are set up. I believe that some folks have noted in the past that it is a best practice after testing the board initially to unplug it for 15 minutes if there are issues, and/or to let the board acclimate to room temperature for that amount of time before plugging it in.

[pilcher]

pilcher are you involved in the shipping industry? That is one of the sites I have used to track the container shipments.

Nope. But I have ordered a couple of cars from European manufacturers and tracked the ships on which they crossed the Atlantic.

[JezmondoUK]

I'm not sure you could characterise this as "working". These keys have produced incorrect inputs since I first set the thing up. As I say, I've looked for bridged areas and everything looks okay. So I'm not sure what to do next. I HATE taking the thing apart, as it is such a bear to get it back together (but I have done this three times... and if I have to do it again, then I will).

I'm really hoping someone can point me in the right direction (or ask a question that helps - often it's the questions that are most helpful).

So for, nothing has changed the operation of the keyboard - but I suppose the positive is I haven't broken anything.

[webwit]

F62 HHKB still going strong after over 4 years of heavy daily use.

I still need to buy one of your beamsprings, Ellipse.

[Ellipse]

Glad to hear webwit!

Apologies I misunderstood your reply JezmondoUK. According to your list it appears that three rows are bridged. You can put the pandrew utility signal level monitor into matrix mode to confirm this (see the manual for details). As I mentioned earlier you should also be reading through the manual entirely as much of it is dedicated to fixing issues with keys (not just watching the setup video). Tightening the 2 ground controller screws and using the pandrew utility's signal level monitor are important steps.

Did you also check on the controller chips for a solder bridge? Just remove the 2 controller ground screws and bend the controller ribbon cable back so you can look easily at the 3 main areas for a bridge - the controller itself, the controller through holes (both sides of the PCB) and the large capacitive PCB through holes (both sides of the PCB, though you can't see the other side with everything assembled). The manual notes that if that does not work you do have to take off all the keys and open up the inner assembly and remove the PCB to check for a solder bridge on the PCB itself, like the ones pictured in the manual. With everything removed, you can place just one loose flipper with spring on one of the affected keys and see how the pandrew utility responds.

If this is still all not working please email me screenshots/videos of your diagnostics of the above points and of the steps in the manual and I may just send a replacement preassembled controller+ribbon cable+pcb for your keyboard.

[dcopellino]

F62 HHKB still going strong after over 4 years of heavy daily use.

I still need to buy one of your beamsprings, Ellipse.

Wow. It sounds strange that Webwit has something to ask Ellipse!! Out of curiosity, who has the broadest IBM keebs collection of you two?
looking @ https://www.flickr.com/photos/modelfkey ... 297401122/ and comparing to Webwit: https://webwit.nl/input/
It seems that the latter is the largest, isn't it?

[webwit]

Yes, would trade for B62 HHKB!

[Ellipse]

Thanks for sharing that link! Nice to see those photos all in one place.

Alas most of those keyboards from my collection are long gone.

[Ellipse]

With permission I am posting a nice custom setup of the F15 split ergo keyboard. There are still a few of these available to order.

Please do keep sharing photos of your new Model F and new Beam Spring setups! All kinds of custom mod projects are exactly what I am hoping to see more of.

This custom mod setup focuses on making things as solid and with as little movement during operation as possible, tenting the keyboards using custom cut pieces of solid wood so that everything stays in place. I have copied the description below:

"(1) Tents: Hand / chop saw cut out of 2x8 pine. Sanded and spray painted black
(2a) Black Rests: Hand / chop saw cut out of 2x4 pine. 1/8 inch board bases. Glued. Shaped with a wood shaper tool. Sanded and spray painted black
(2b) Wood Rests: Hand / chop saw cut out of 2x4 pine. 1/8 inch board bases. Glued. Shaped with a wood shaper tool. Sanded. Stained. Spray painted lacquer. Fine sanded and polished.
(3) Keycaps: Mix of Unicomp and New Model F keycaps"

F15 (1).jpeg (604.11 KiB) Viewed 11961 times

F15 (2).jpeg (565.04 KiB) Viewed 11961 times

[setiawan]

Hi all, got my F77 a few months ago and now getting around to customising the layout. I’ve installed the vial firmware and poking around at vial.rocks.

I have numpad layout number 4 pictured below:


Is there a way to get the numlock layer to work like depicted on my keys? For example, i want the non-num function of numpad 8 to act as Home, but currently it only can work as up arrow.

I’ve only started using Vial tonight, but i don’t see any obvious way of catering to this use case. Do i have to create a toggle layer to act as num lock?

Thanks!

---
Edit: I've gone ahead and set it up as a toggle layer and it seems to work well. Only difference is the OS obviously cannot recognise that num lock is enabled since it is not a real num lock, but not quite a big deal i suppose.

How about the "00" key, would that simply have to be a macro? I don't think I've ever seen a keyboard with "00" before actually, I wonder if there is even a standardised key code for it

[Ellipse]

APL Key Set Model F XT Quality - draft - combining Unsaver, Model M, and other APL layout styles

As requested, here is the APL key set that I hope to add as an ordering option for the new Model F XT quality key sets. As with the other key sets like JIS, any front printing has moved to the top of the key.

I have compared several sites (listed below) discussing and showing photos of the various APL layouts and have added some keys to allow for both ANSI and ISO style APL layouts (though the Unicomp ISO Enter key will currently be only available separately).

What is the best color for the APL legends? I chose an orange that I expect will appear slightly faded or lighter than what is shown here.

The margins look tight but they will be the same as the Russian-Hebrew-English set posted a while back; a good amount of space on the left and right sides of the key tops.

In terms of alignment I wanted to keep it consistent with Zed's right alignment on various sets including Russian-Hebrew-English, though the originals seem to have mostly been left aligned at a line slightly to the right of center of each key top.

Please let me know if there are any errors or recommended adjustments with this set before the file is sent to the factory for production.

The key sets can be ordered from the Full Key Set product page on the project web site - just pick the APL option as all of them from now on will be this new production set.

https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Dyalog_APL
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103641.0
https://romilly.github.io/o-x-o/appendix-b.html
https://dfns.dyalog.com/n_keyboards.htm
viewtopic.php?f=62&t=23141
https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Typing_glyphs
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62543.0
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94217.0

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setiawan yes toggle layers are definitely the recommended way to configure the additional right side blocks.

[Ellipse]

Updates on today's meetup and potential stolen keyboard:

Nice seeing everyone at today's NYC meetup! This one was completely sold out with over 250 tickets sold. It was a nice space that had a good amount of air conditioning which was definitely needed today!

Someone even brought an IBM Selectric typewriter and plugged it in; it was great to try it out for the first time and compare it to the new beam spring and Model F keyboards. I was surprised at the high quality of the font/printing - it was about as good as a modern day laser printer! Manual typewriter letters were fuzzier in my recollection.


Potential stolen keyboard alert - ebay listing:

It appears that this keyboard was one of the keyboards lost by UPS and resold to Cargo Largo. You may recall they also acquired another "lost" Model F keyboard back in 2020 but after I was made aware of it, they did send it back to me. Thanks to everyone here for keeping an eye out on the keyboards!

Classic F77 serial 1496

https://www.ebay.com/itm/126595803983

It was not on the previously posted (incomplete) list of stolen/lost keyboards. This one appears to have been lost by UPS in 2022 (it is the very old style styrofoam packaging from the 2019 and 2021 container shipments).

[mikem]

How about the "00" key, would that simply have to be a macro? I don't think I've ever seen a keyboard with "00" before actually, I wonder if there is even a standardised key code for it

It does indeed have a code in the USB standard :-

B0 Keypad 00 Sel
B1 Keypad 000

And it exists. The attached image is a bit of a cheat as it's from a 1980s Olivetti calculator, but I've seen 'em on 'proper' keyboards.

[kbdfr]

"00" is not uncommon on point of sale (POS) keyboards
https://www.ebay.com/itm/195877810281
https://www.ebay.com/itm/155592629407
https://www.ebay.com/itm/235618299708

[Ellipse]

One challenge of a product requiring setup and maintenance is that some folks don't think it's worth the effort and they don't want to do any of that even though all sorts of tech products require maintenance and repairs while most others don't last long enough to require it. I recently had an interesting discussion with someone who wanted a completely setup- and maintenance- free new Model F keyboard and here is part of that discussion, including the challenges of doing that for small production runs with over a thousand possible keyboard variations while keeping pricing as low as possible for everyone.

For those reading this, how have you convinced yourself and others to put in the extra effort and learning needed to get the best of what's out there, whether it is a new Model F or something else? Has anyone here convinced someone else to get into the world of mechanical keyboards?

Almost all repairs are rather straightforward after checking out the manual and its setup video to see what is expected: for example, using tweezers to put back a spring that is out of place or damaged or learning how to solder if the ribbon cable needs maintenance.

The question you have to ask yourself: Is it really worth it to spend ~1 hour or 2 of your time doing something else instead of following a step-by-step video and written manual, if it means you won't be able to maximize typing comfort, speed, and accuracy during 10,000 hours of computer usage over the rest of your life, with a product designed by IBM to do just that? ~1 hour of work for 10,000 hours of benefit. For many people, they will avoid that work hour because they currently do not prioritize a "buy it for life" mindset and don't want to check reviews and do the research needed to find the best things in life, whether it is a quality car, camera, computer, computer display, keyboard, vacation plan, etc. One goal of the project is to help folks learn how a small amount of extra effort results in disproportionately high rewards.

Your current options are to take an hour or so to learn how to set up and maintain a new Model F or for the expected thousands of hours you'll be at your computer over the coming decades to go through a series of keyboards not designed by IBM through years of R&D for comfort, speed, and accuracy. Under a scenario with everything set up and taken care of for everyone, I would also have to hire local workers to install and test all the keyboards after each custom order is received because there are already hundreds of variations (not counting the dozens of key set options) and only a thousand or so keyboards in each production run (far too small a run to predict, factory install, and stock each needed variation), which is why they can't come from the factory preinstalled. Regarding requiring no maintenance on your own, we would need service centers and distributors, genius bars, repair personnel, and tech support hotline workers, and everyone would pay a lot more on top of an already expensive keyboard to pay for this overhead (over a smaller order base, as some folks are priced out even with the current pricing), which is not feasible for such a small project as this one.

Would sales be higher or lower in this other market scenario? IBM had these significant advantages but they were able to charge an inflation-adjusted $800 to $1000 for this product that this new project charges a fraction of that amount, and even IBM/Lexmark couldn't feasibly continue their buckling spring keyboard operations and support decades ago with a thousand-plus times the volume that we have today. Everyone won't pay more for that convenience with a steep cost, especially when the keyboard is already so costly; only a far smaller number of folks could afford to do that. The philosophy of this project is that everyone can get repair kits now and learn how to maintain and use a Brand New Model F keyboard long after the project has ended and production has shut down.

[thefarside]

I agree with your philosophy and thankfully Model F keyboards don’t require much maintenance. I bought two F77 keyboards and other than installing the keys, they didn’t require anything else. I took one apart and it was very simple. Only two screws!

I prefer DIY and any efforts to keep the costs down. Didn’t IBM rent their 4704 keyboards for something like $100/month in the 1980s?

If you want something to last a long time you have to maintain it. Doesn’t matter what it is. For Model F keyboards my biggest concern would be having spare foam and most importantly, a spare controller.

Regarding controllers, are the one you sell compatible with IBM F107 and AT keyboards?

[Ellipse]

We are just a few weeks away from the delivery of the keyboards from the shipping container! They are expecting delivery just before month end.

Thanks for your feedback thefarside. Yes the keyboards were offered for a monthly rent of $20, $21, or $22 depending on F50/F62/F77 model as of the 1984 price guide (seems like the F107 came a little later?). That's $60 or more per month in today's dollars.

Yes the store has pandrew's terrific controllers for the 4704 and the other controller for the PC AT/F122/etc. Currently I am saving the 4704 controllers for the IBM NOS F50 auction that is still ongoing but email me if anyone needs that one.

[Ellipse]

Here's a nice photo from reddit showing a setup with the Industrial Gray F77 Model F keyboard - another great looking desktop setup!

https://www.reddit.com/r/battlestations ... behind_my/

[Ellipse]

With permission I am sharing a nice setup with an Industrial Gray F62, the HHKB Front Print Key set, and a trackball: "the F62 and a Ploopy Adept, both running Vial, connected to a Framework 13 running Arch."

F62 with trackball.jpg (1.96 MiB) Viewed 5259 times