F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[tyrantcyan]

Ive got an HHKB optioned F62 and and SSK with split backspace and full right shift coming in.

Id expect ` next to 1 because theres an Escape above.

There are so many extra keys on an SSK compared to an F62, I didnt need or aesthetically want an extra key next to shift.

The HHKB backspace placemnt is much better in my opinion, so I chose split backspace.

[NathanA]

an SSK with split backspace and full right shift coming in.

This doesn't appear to be an option on the order form. It looks like the only choices for you to pick from when requesting split keys are split Right Shift only (with full 2U Backspace), or split Right Shift AND split Backspace, but not split Backspace only (with full 2.75U Right Shift).

Is this something you special-requested from Ellipse when ordering?

Anyway, you touched on the exact nature of the debate: yes, there is already Esc on the function row. But if you split Backspace, then there is ALSO already a ` at the opposite end of the number row. So because the function row exists, one way or the other, you are going to have a duplicate key when you choose the HHKB layout (with stock config / out of the box...you can of course change any of the keys to be whatever you want later with Vial).

So, the assumption I would have -- which is possibly incorrect, and what I'm trying to test with this "poll" -- is that, given that both FSSK and F104 have more than enough keys to render an HHKB-style layout largely pointless, those who are specifically ordering it are likely doing so because they are HHKB devotees who want the layout of their F 'board to match what they are used to typing on already as closely as possible. Which if true would mean that it makes more sense to double Esc than to double `, since muscle memory has a high likelihood to instinctually aim for that key when Esc is the intended action.

So I'm mostly interested in the responses from those who ordered a board with "HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace" selected on the order form.

[tyrantcyan]

an SSK with split backspace and full right shift coming in.

Is this something you special-requested from Ellipse when ordering?

Yes, it was a addon I requested.

Wonder how many full HHKB layout SSKs have been ordered.

[nac5605]

I have finished taking photos of some of the new F104 and FSSK variations. I will soon be uploading to the project web site.

Full-resolution photos can be viewed at this imgur album link: https://imgur.com/a/EIebi75

The first photos in the album are the F104, followed by the FSSK, and finally the most recent beam spring B104 sample.

Below are a few F104 samples:
2024-09-16_20-24-16.jpg
2024-09-16_20-31-48.jpg
2024-09-16_13-14-17.jpg
2024-09-16_13-30-08.jpg
2024-09-16_15-05-36.jpg
2024-09-16_15-57-24.jpg
2024-09-16_16-18-07.jpg
2024-09-16_16-44-51.jpg
2024-09-16_17-18-25.jpg
2024-09-17_23-46-43.jpg

If you have B122 photos I'd love to see them here as well!

[Ellipse]

The factory is still working on completing the beam spring keyboard samples, which have taken far longer than expected.

Here is a nice, detailed new Model F review that was posted this week on geekhack: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=123701.0

Here's a clear photo of the classic zinc case F62 Kishsaver that was just posted on reddit. This one has the Mac Text keys installed:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb ... kishsaver/

[Ellipse]

Now that Classic F104/Classic FSSK low serial orders have started shipping, just a reminder to check your junk folder in case the shipping confirmation email ends up there. This has happened a number of times from what folks have told me.

We also have the first videos featuring the new dye sublimated Model F badges! From the same F62 poster above. For all models, these badges can be placed on any flat area of the case, whereas the F122 has a recessed spot for a badge. They are adhesive backed and have a protective clear film on the front which should be removed.

Solenoid disabled: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fb2Z285ec2k
Solenoid enabled: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/24JguBwS_pI

[Ir0n]

Dang, didn't realize these were already starting to go out.
I can't wait. My ssk has been failing slowly from rivets falling out and I've been too lazy to open it up and bolt mod it. Lol

[tyrantcyan]

Now that Classic F104/Classic FSSK low serial orders have started shipping, just a reminder to check your junk folder in case the shipping confirmation email ends up there. This has happened a number of times from what folks have told me.

We also have the first videos featuring the new dye sublimated Model F badges! From the same F62 poster above. For all models, these badges can be placed on any flat area of the case, whereas the F122 has a recessed spot for a badge. They are adhesive backed and have a protective clear film on the front which should be removed.

Solenoid disabled: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fb2Z285ec2k
Solenoid enabled: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/24JguBwS_pI

What serials are still available for the FSSK?

[dr_xadium]

I just wanted to post that I got my F104 today, and it's amazing.

I compared it side-by-side with the Model M which was my daily driver for the past year or so, and other than the lack of the IBM badge, it was virtually identical in person. Amazing design fidelity!

As you can see in the attached photo it pairs perfectly with a vintage PS/2 case. (I added the repro IBM badge on it)

The outside of the box got manhandled a bit in shipping, but internally everything was perfect and installing keys was fairly straightforward. I was up and running within 30 minutes (following along with the video).

The feel of the keyboard compared to the M is night and day - and the solenoid makes typing even more satisfying. I have to toggle it off every now and then to keep from driving people crazy and it always feels slightly empty when I do haha. The crispness of the keyfeel and the snappy feedback is night and day to the M, which feels mushy in comparison.

It did take me a bit to find the info that toggling the solenoid on and off was the Fn + Space + T key combination, so that might want to be more prominently featured somewhere.

All in all I'm very happy with my purchase and the wait was certainly worth it!

Excellent work, Ellipse!

[Ellipse]

dr_xadium I think you have posted the first Classic Case F104 keyboard review! Glad that everything is up and running. I was confused initially as I wasn't sure if that was a Model F or Model M in the photo upon first glance! It matches nicely with the IBM beige color of the computer.

tyrantcyan most serials are still available - since I do not update the list often, in the order notes text box feel free to include a list of requests sorted by priority when ordering the low serial upgrade.

[dr_xadium]

dr_xadium I think you have posted the first Classic Case F104 keyboard review! Glad that everything is up and running. I was confused initially as I wasn't sure if that was a Model F or Model M in the photo upon first glance! It matches nicely with the IBM beige color of the computer.

Yeah, I should have taken a dedicated side by side shot but here's a screenshot from a video I had taken earlier to show someone (M on top) - you can see it's dead on (the lighting makes the M look a little darker but it's not in person).

Your work color matching paid off - the only difference I could detect was the texturing, which is to be expected because the materials are different. And even then it's not distractingly different.

[pilcher]

I just wanted to post that I got my F104 today, and it's amazing.

That looks absolutely awesome. Can't wait!

[OmerFlame2]

SO SICK!! I can't wait to get mine already, this is so cool...

[Fond Lion]

So, the assumption I would have -- which is possibly incorrect, and what I'm trying to test with this "poll" -- is that, given that both FSSK and F104 have more than enough keys to render an HHKB-style layout largely pointless, those who are specifically ordering it are likely doing so because they are HHKB devotees who want the layout of their F 'board to match what they are used to typing on already as closely as possible. Which if true would mean that it makes more sense to double Esc than to double `, since muscle memory has a high likelihood to instinctually aim for that key when Esc is the intended action.

So I'm mostly interested in the responses from those who ordered a board with "HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace" selected on the order form.

I've ordered two FSSK and one BSSK, all with split backspace and right shift. I'm a German ANSI user. I need the additional keys from the split layout for a §° key and a menu key. I keep `~ to the left of 1 and put §° to the right of \|. Menu goes to the right of shift. That placement is just my preference, as I'm used to `~ to the left of 1. HHKB or Sun users probably prefer it to the right of \|. I've never used a HHKB or Sun keyboard myself. (For what it's worth, on the Swedish/Finnish layout §° is left to 1 and on the German layout °^ is left to 1.)

The images look awesome and I can't wait to receive my keyboards!

[engr]

So, I am trying to troubleshoot some issues with the "E" key with my new F104. Most of the time it works OK, but occasionally it does not register or registers twice. Reseating the keycaps several times did not help. I went through the troubleshooting steps in the manual, and in the Signal Monitor I am seeing that the entire top two rows (at the very minimum - these are just the ones that I removed all keycaps from) are showing "green" signal levels when the keycaps are removed (unless I flip the keyboard up, in which case the signal goes back to "red") - see attached photos.

Does that mean that ALL the springs/flippers in my keyboard have something wrong with them and need to be adjusted, or do I misunderstand the procedure? I have only been having an issue with the "E" key, not others.

[Ellipse]

Everything looks correct from what I can see. The manual specifically notes that reseating keys many times will not solve most issues, and it has a step by step process to fix individual keys, including steps such as replacing the spring and testing with another keycap.

I suggest starting from the beginning of the setup video in the manual and the written manual, to minimize the time you need to figure things out.

[RainehDaze]

Hmm, been having a bit of an odd issue w.r.t. firmware changes since moving over to Linux. I flashed the firmware with vial in the past and changed it on windows, but this time the keyboard isn't picked up by Vial. Which is… curious. I've checked the udev rules and that's fine, it shows up as

Code: Select all

Bus 001 Device 004: ID 0481:00f0 Zenith Data Systems Brand New Model F Keyboards - F77

under lsusb, so I'd think that would be it, but… maybe I'm missing something?

Doesn't show up on the web version, either. Well, I get a window asking to select a HID device, but then it decides there's nothing connected.

[NathanA]

I've ordered two FSSK and one BSSK, all with split backspace and right shift.

There is no split anything option with BSSK, so what you state is not possible. Perhaps you mean B62? B62 is of course a very different animal than FSSK/BSSK since there is not only no numpad, but also no nav cluster. So if you mean B62, it will have even fewer keys than your two FSSK boards will have.

I'm a German ANSI user.

That sounds like a very unusual combination! Is there a standard layout for "German ANSI"? My understanding is that German keyboards by and large follow the ISO layout, like most other European keyboards tend to.

I need the additional keys from the split layout for a §° key and a menu key. I keep `~ to the left of 1 and put §° to the right of \|.

Then it sounds like you will need to do some customization/changes to your config with Vial anyway, and won't be able to use it as-configured out-of-the-box. (Which is also a given if you need to German-ize the layout further anyway, such as swapping Z and Y, etc.)

I'm largely interested in hearing from people about how they expected a layout billed as "HHKB-style" to arrive to them pre-configured. Perhaps there are too few such people paying attention to this thread. I'm personally somewhat curious how many people even ordered FSSK or (especially) F104 with both the original Backspace and Right Shift as split. Perhaps it is a rather low percentage of total purchases. This would make sense just given how many more keys are available on both models compared to F62/F77.

Menu goes to the right of shift.

Curious if you assign both of the 1-unit keys between Left Ctrl/Alt and Right Ctrl/Alt to Windows key, then? Or do you make one of those two a Fn key for layer-switching?

[NathanA]

Hmm, been having a bit of an odd issue w.r.t. firmware changes since moving over to Linux. I flashed the firmware with vial in the past and changed it on windows, but this time the keyboard isn't picked up by Vial. Which is… curious. I've checked the udev rules and that's fine, it shows up as

Code: Select all

Bus 001 Device 004: ID 0481:00f0 Zenith Data Systems Brand New Model F Keyboards - F77

under lsusb, so I'd think that would be it, but… maybe I'm missing something?

If your keyboard is enumerating with a USB Vendor ID of Zenith (0481), then either you aren't running Vial firmware, or you are running a super-old version. Perhaps even one of darkcruix's original Vial builds, instead of one of mine.

You can always get the latest version here.

[RainehDaze]

Hmm, been having a bit of an odd issue w.r.t. firmware changes since moving over to Linux. I flashed the firmware with vial in the past and changed it on windows, but this time the keyboard isn't picked up by Vial. Which is… curious. I've checked the udev rules and that's fine, it shows up as

Code: Select all

Bus 001 Device 004: ID 0481:00f0 Zenith Data Systems Brand New Model F Keyboards - F77

under lsusb, so I'd think that would be it, but… maybe I'm missing something?

If your keyboard is enumerating with a USB Vendor ID of Zenith (0481), then either you aren't running Vial firmware, or you are running a super-old version. Perhaps even one of darkcruix's original Vial builds, instead of one of mine.

You can always get the latest version here.

Hm, it might be an old one for sure (would've been february-march last year?), guess I'll have to flash it again. And check if any of the other keyboards lying around have all the buttons I might need working.

Edit: Ah, no luck. Can't get it into bootloader mode without taking everything apart because it won't show up in an utilities but the key combinations aren't working, but can't get it to show up now. I think it was actually edited with via, not vial, which is definitely raising more questions than answers…

Specifically, it would've been v2.1 there, because I checked the download folder and found the windows installer (and I was right, feb 27th). But, what I'm missing is the definition files so that I can actually connect to it and try to get things in a usable state again.

Went back through the thread but no luck there, aside from "ah, there was a video guide at one point, it's just privated now; I'm not imagining things".

tl;dr is, I guess: unless someone still has the VIA JSON definitions, I'm a bit stuck (I could open it to short the controller, but I'd rather just wait for the F104 at that point and start fresh).

[NathanA]

Edit: Ah, no luck. Can't get it into bootloader mode without taking everything apart because it won't show up in an utilities but the key combinations aren't working, but can't get it to show up now. I think it was actually edited with via, not vial, which is definitely raising more questions than answers…

So, one of the differences between VIA and Vial firmwares is that VIA only automatically "knows" how to configure certain keyboards if that model of keyboard has been "officially blessed" by the developer of the VIA configuration utility (in contrast, Vial can configure any keyboard that is running legit Vial firmware). If it has not been so blessed, you can still configure it with VIA, but as you pointed out later, you have to sideload the keyboard definition file to VIA (using the "Load Draft Definitions" option). VIA uses JSON-formatted files for the keyboard definitions.

If your keyboard really is running old VIA firmware, it's undoubtedly darkcruix's. (I think I misspoke earlier...I don't think darkcruix ever released a Vial firmware for F62/F77, now that I think about it; he was the one who released the first VIA firmware.) So what you are looking for is the darkcruix VIA package download.

darkcruix used to have it hosted for download on his bucklingspring.com site, which it looks like he has sadly torn down. Ellipse at one point bundled copies of the darkcruix VIA firmware in the firmware download bundle from his web site, but it looks like the most recent version has removed all of those & replaced with Vial, and also that virtually all references to VIA have been scrubbed from Ellipse's manual. This is understandable from one perspective since with Vial support, continuing VIA support is largely pointless...but it also leaves folks like you with keyboards that still have VIA firmware loaded on them kind of up a creek, especially if you didn't manage to keep copies of that old firmware download around.

Fortunately, it looks like Internet Archive has come to the rescue: you can download the F77 VIA and JSON definition file from here (just click either of the Download buttons on the page), and the F62 VIA and JSON definition file from here (same story).

FYI, the Vial app on your computer is also capable of configuring a keyboard that's running VIA firmware on it. You just have to sideload the VIA JSON into Vial in a similar manner (via File > "Sideload VIA JSON...").

As for getting your keyboard into bootloader mode without opening it up, this can be done by using either VIA or Vial to configure one of the keys on your keyboard on any layer to the "RESET" function (keycode 0x5C00). Then simply press that key, and the keyboard controller will reset to bootloader mode. You might have been trying LShift+RShift+B, which likely only works on QMK firmwares, since I think both VIA and Vial have the QMK "Command Keys" feature disabled (for reasons of compatibility and available resources on the controller). Assuming you have a stock/unmodified key layout from the initial VIA flash, even the VIA firmware has "RESET" assigned to layer 2's "R" key, and layer 2 can be reached via Fn + Space. So, maybe just try Fn+Space+R to kick it into bootloader mode. It might just work. If it doesn't then just set some key to "RESET", and press that key instead.

Interestingly, and much to my surprise, I also discovered that if I have VIA firmware loaded on a keyboard, and I load Vial & then sideload the VIA JSON into Vial, the Vial feature under Security > "Reboot to bootloader..." actually works! I'm surprised since I can't find anywhere in official VIA app (at least v1.3.1) that allows you to kick the controller into bootloader mode, so I was not aware that there was any code in the VIA firmware that would accept that command.

Good luck.

EDIT: Also meant to confirm that, yes, you're correct: VIA firmware will not work / is not compatible with pandrew-util, so your keyboard won't show up in that utility if you use that older VIA firmware. But hopefully I've give you enough pointers that you can now both edit the layout of your current firmware, as well as go into bootloader mode without physically opening up the keyboard in order to upgrade your firmware. Upgrading to Vial firmware will allow you to use the pandrew-util, as well as use Vial to configure the keyboard without requiring you to separately sideload the VIA JSON each time, etc. If you are going to perform the firmware flash from a Linux computer, pay special attention to the end of of the "FLASHING" section of the README file.

EDIT 2: There is no prebuilt version of pandrew-util for Linux with support for Vial firmwares; this is due to the diverse array of Linux distributions out there, which makes building such a thing extremely complicated. If you want a copy that will work for you, just let me know which Linux distribution and version of that distribution you are running, and I should be able to throw one together for you.

[RainehDaze]

Finally, that fixed it. Needed to change the product ID in the JSON but that let me see what was actually wrong: the mapping to put it on the layer with the bootloader was misconfigured (I'd added an extra layer to toggle how the numpad worked that I rarely use). Swapped that around and now I have my keyboard flashed with the vial firmware and showing up to modify there.

Found a slightly easier solution for the dfu thing, seeing as I'm not sure it's in fedora repos any more (or maybe it just wasn't ported to the derivative I have); the dfu-programmer github has a standalone, precompiled executable. Assuming that it was statically linked with whatever it needs and not just finding random libraries who knows where on my system, it's fine to download that and drop it in to replace the mac one (for anyone on linux, obviously) instead of doing the symlink to a system-installed version.

Did have to run the script with sudo, but that could just be udev permissions or something being weird.

Code: Select all

Bus 001 Device 009: ID 1209:4704 Generic F77 Keyboard (FW:r5)

lsusb now shows this, which I guess is correct?

[NathanA]

Needed to change the product ID in the JSON

That shouldn't have been necessary, but, uh...I just looked back at your original lsusb output, and noticed that the product description string said "F77", but the USB PID was 0x00f0. According to darkcruix's original documentation, the F62 VIA firmware self-identifies as 0x00f0, and the F77 as 0x00c0. So how on earth you had an F77 running VIA firmware with a PID of f0, ...? I have no idea. Unless perhaps this was a minor oversight in an early release by darkcruix that he corrected later? Dunno.

Anyway, glad to hear you got it sorted & working.

Assuming that it was statically linked with whatever it needs and not just finding random libraries who knows where on my system,

That is indeed the issue/concern. And you know what they say about what ASSuming does...

Unfortunately...

Code: Select all

$ wget https://github.com/dfu-programmer/dfu-programmer/releases/download/v1.1.0/dfu-programmer-linux-1.1.0.zip
$ unzip ./dfu-programmer-linux-1.1.0.zip
$ file ./dfu-programmer
dfu-programmer: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, [...]
$ readelf -d ./dfu-programmer

Dynamic section at offset 0x15c70 contains 28 entries:
  Tag        Type                         Name/Value
 0x0000000000000001 (NEEDED)             Shared library: [libusb-1.0.so.0]
 0x0000000000000001 (NEEDED)             Shared library: [libc.so.6]
[...]

So not only is it not statically linked when it comes to libc, it even has a dependency on the shared-lib version of libusb. So even if libc doesn't prove to be an issue, if there is a significant enough difference between your system's libusb and what this binary was built against, your mileage may highly vary. Fortunately for you, it worked in your case. Can't say I'd feel comfortable pointing other people at this solution in general, though.

What distrib are you running?

Code: Select all

Bus 001 Device 009: ID 1209:4704 Generic F77 Keyboard (FW:r5)

Yeah, the "Generic" text is I believe just the vendor name that Linux uses for the 1209 VID. Ellipse reserved the 4704 PID from there in honor of the IBM system model that the original F62 and F77 keyboards were manufactured for. The product string is "F77 Keyboard (FW:r5)". "r5" is the "New Fxx" Vial firmware release #.

[RainehDaze]

What distrib are you running?

Nobara. So, that should be fedora repos upstream (mirrored but all the same). Doesn't look like the packages there contain dfu-programmer, not any more (plus the instructions suggesting yum is probably a bit outdated). I tried compiling it manually first but autoconf was being… odd. Glad I got lucky on the shared lib thing.

[NathanA]

Doesn't look like the packages there contain dfu-programmer, not any more

Yup, looks like it was last included in Fedora 38, and then dropped after that...feh.

https://packages.fedoraproject.org/pkgs ... rogrammer/
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/issues/22773

(plus the instructions suggesting yum is probably a bit outdated)

Yeah yeah, dnf vs. yum, etc. I'm a Debian/Ubuntu guy, sorry/not sorry; heh.

I tried compiling it manually first but autoconf was being… odd. Glad I got lucky on the shared lib thing.

Quitter.

EDIT: Perhaps you could take the SRPM of the F38 release and beat it into submission / make it build on your system.

[dr_xadium]

For those on the fence about getting a solenoid in their keyboard - after a few days of living with the solenoid on the Model F keyboard I can say it's not just a gimmick to make things louder - the feedback it gives really adds a kick and crispness to the keyfeel that you miss when it's turned off. It makes the typing experience that much more satisfying.

[Fond Lion]

There is no split anything option with BSSK, so what you state is not possible.

I've paid for the extra tooling to make the split-keys BSSK possible, see viewtopic.php?f=50&t=26174&p=517750#p517750.

That sounds like a very unusual combination! Is there a standard layout for "German ANSI"? My understanding is that German keyboards by and large follow the ISO layout, like most other European keyboards tend to.

Indeed, ANSI layouts are rarely used in Germany. There is no standard layout for German ANSI, but German ANSI keyboards exist (some examples: https://www.opengate.at/blog/assets/img ... nsi-de.jpg, https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71K ... L1500_.jpg, https://www.hardwaredealz.com/forum/dat ... dd4d15.jpg). I'm just using the regular US ANSI layout with CapsLock used as AltGr and ä, ö, ü, ß on AltGr + a, o, u, s respectively.

I'm largely interested in hearing from people about how they expected a layout billed as "HHKB-style" to arrive to them pre-configured. Perhaps there are too few such people paying attention to this thread. I'm personally somewhat curious how many people even ordered FSSK or (especially) F104 with both the original Backspace and Right Shift as split. Perhaps it is a rather low percentage of total purchases. This would make sense just given how many more keys are available on both models compared to F62/F77.

I don't know if most people expect that, but I think it's sensible to have it configured like a HHKB keyboard by default (just as it is right now), because it's labeled as such. It's really easy anyway to change the layout with Vial.

Curious if you assign both of the 1-unit keys between Left Ctrl/Alt and Right Ctrl/Alt to Windows key, then? Or do you make one of those two a Fn key for layer-switching?

I use the 1u keys as Super keys, and AltGr on the CapsLock key as a layer switch. The default for european keyboards would be to use RAlt as AltGr though.

[NathanA]

There is no standard layout for German ANSI, but German ANSI keyboards exist (some examples:

Very interesting; thanks.

I'm just using the regular US ANSI layout with CapsLock used as AltGr and ä, ö, ü, ß on AltGr + a, o, u, s respectively.

Okay, so you are not doing split left shift to get the extra key next to LShift that we normally see on ISO models?

I've paid for the extra tooling to make the split-keys BSSK possible,

Huh. I didn't remember this, and I was going to reply to this by pointing out that if I didn't know about it, there likely isn't a firmware that exists yet which would support such a variant (at least not for xwhatsit/wcass controller). However, it looks like all of the keys are indeed splittable on the new version of the BSSK, so I clearly just forgot about this. (A lot has happened in the past year, in my defense...)

[Ellipse]

Yes, here are the additional BSSK mods available, as per the product page:

Mod 1: 3×5 right side block cut out area around the cursor keys (so you get 5 extra keys)

Mod 2: split right shift and split backspace

[engr]

I suggest starting from the beginning of the setup video in the manual and the written manual, to minimize the time you need to figure things out.

Yes, I eventually was able to get it to work; it was a combination of two separate issues: an ill-fitting spring on the E key and a a stabilizer wire on the spacebar that occasionally cause the spacebar to lag very slightly.

One thing I have not been able to figure out is the proper installation of 1-inch rubber bumpers (the ones with the screws and nuts): when I tried installing them through the holes in the case (as I did on the F77), the rubber bumpers partially cover the countersunk case screws. I ended up using the smaller glue-on bumpers, whose height is not ideal for the angle I want. Any suggestions?