F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[Ellipse]

It is a tight fit, but I would install the case bolt inside the bottom case hole, then install the 1" bumper, and then install the bottom case to the top case. Be sure to install the bumper so that it is as far as possible away from the head of the bolt. I just tested it now and there is just enough clearance for a driver.

[zappazappa]

Has anyone tried installing the solenoid in the middle of the top keyboard edge instead of on the side, to achieve centered sound and more even distribution of vibrations? I just installed a solenoid and I love it, but I can definitely feel it coming from the side, and would love to have the sound and sensations coming more from the middle.

[zappazappa]

I put together an F62 scumyc layout, and there is a surprising amount of curvature in the backplate, it didn't touch the screw holes and the PCB started to bend. Putting the case on seems like a bad idea. Is this normal or have I likely done something wrong?

[zappazappa]

Is this normal and screwing the case bottom on will compress the metal into the right place? Seems like it has a relatively large distance to travel/bend to get into place.

[Ellipse]

Yes, all appears normal

[zappazappa]

Loving my F62 boards, especially the scumyc layout.

[zappazappa]

So the scumyc board that I posted images of above while I was putting it together has a surprisingly different sound signature than the black F62 - much more muted with less treble. It sounds more different than I would have thought possible considering the components are so consistently manufactured. Has anyone else run into this? And idea what it could be? Maybe it has to do with the force required to screw down the scumyc, or maybe not all pre-made boards were sent out with foam installed? Or maybe people are finding each board sounds unique, and it's part of the joy of collecting these? Both sound great, that's for sure. Wow.

[Ellipse]

That is normal. All Model F keyboards vary in their sound and each Model F keyboard sounds unique.

[ms264556]

Now that you've got more photos of the F122 up on your site, I'm not sure I like the look of the relegendables on the left, so I'd like to order some extra caps for this block, just in case.

You have a mac f1-f15 caps set for sale, but I can't find any pictures. Can you either point me at the pictures, or some link which shows the legends these are expected to have?

[engr]

It is a tight fit, but I would install the case bolt inside the bottom case hole, then install the 1" bumper, and then install the bottom case to the top case.

I ended up buying 3/4 inch bumpers on McMaster-Carr (p/n 9540K932, if anyone is interested). They work well with the 6-32 screws that were included with the 1-inch bumpers, and they were the tallest model with a small enough diameter to not interfere with the case screws on F104.

[OmerFlame2]

I'm interested in skipping the line and paying a little more, how do I do this?

EDIT: I ordered a F104 in a M-style case, just to clarify.

[tyrantcyan]

I'm interested in skipping the line and paying a little more, how do I do this?

EDIT: I ordered a F104 in a M-style case, just to clarify.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/skip-the-line/

You should probably first email Ellipse to ask if a number is available if you’re looking for something specific.

[Ellipse]

Here is the draft Mac F1-F15 set, designed to match the legends style of Apple's keyboard. Please let me know your feedback:

Draft Mac F1-F15.PNG (32.35 KiB) Viewed 9743 times

Engr please do post photos of those bumpers on your Model F if possible!

[keycap]

I'm interested in skipping the line and paying a little more, how do I do this?

EDIT: I ordered a F104 in a M-style case, just to clarify.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/skip-the-line/

You should probably first email Ellipse to ask if a number is available if you’re looking for something specific.

Is it possible to do this when you've already bought one? I really don't care about the serial number or anything, just want to get an F77. Said it was in stock and estimated shipping was 1-4 weeks but it's been at least a month.

[ms264556]

Here is the draft Mac F1-F15 set, designed to match the legends style of Apple's keyboard. Please let me know your feedback

Thanks for that.

It seems macs have slightly different legends for the past few generations (with no F-only keys anymore):

My main worry would be the fact this is draft... Is adding a set likely to substantially delay an F122 order?

[Fond Lion]

Okay, so you are not doing split left shift to get the extra key next to LShift that we normally see on ISO models?

No, because I don't really need another key and the bigger shift is easier to reach with the left pinky.

Huh. I didn't remember this, and I was going to reply to this by pointing out that if I didn't know about it, there likely isn't a firmware that exists yet which would support such a variant (at least not for xwhatsit/wcass controller). However, it looks like all of the keys are indeed splittable on the new version of the BSSK, so I clearly just forgot about this. (A lot has happened in the past year, in my defense...)

I'm glad it will work, then. Your work is really appreciated, thanks!

[pilcher]

@Ellipse - FYI, the link to this thread on your web site isn't working.

[Ellipse]

keycap yes you can upgrade an existing order to the low serial skip the line option by placing a new order.

The backlog time does vary as it is always an estimate; it might take a few extra weeks for orders placed in the past month that have not yet gone out since I am mailing out the F104/FSSK keyboards that recently arrived.

The new key sets will not delay the F122 since the F122 is still finishing up assembly. It does not take long to produce new key sets.

Thanks pilcher; I have updated the link.

Thanks - I see that there are two current full-size keyboards on the Apple site. Here is the larger version of the newer one from that image: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK2C ... white-keys

Any other feedback on the draft APL set posted a few months ago?

APL Draft3.PNG (133.11 KiB) Viewed 9487 times

[minimal]

Just received my FSSK and F104 today. Got the FSSK set up with no problems at all. Solenoid installed and set to max throw. Man... I am exactly as blown away as I had hoped I would be!

Without question this is very likely my "end game" keyboard... or pair of them... unless someone convinces me that a beamspring is yet another level of typing heaven.

But... my purpose for this message is for anyone who is wondering about the solenoid. The keyboard is really great in so many ways, but having the solenoid going just changes the whole experience in a way that I really hadn't expected. I thought it would just be some fun noise or whatever... but it makes me a much better typist.

I think it may have something to do with the fact that each keystroke provides exactly the same sound at the same intensity level and... it is perfectly simultaneous to actuation, so I get auditory, tactile and visual feedback that is extremely precise and consistent. In turn, I notice that I am not applying nearly as much force as I would on most any other keyboard, and am therefore more relaxed, speedier, and accurate on top of that!

So... if you are going to get one of these boards, get the solenoid! You wont be sorry.

[Ellipse]

Just received my FSSK and F104 today. Got the FSSK set up with no problems at all. Solenoid installed and set to max throw. Man... I am exactly as blown away as I had hoped I would be!

Without question this is very likely my "end game" keyboard... or pair of them... unless someone convinces me that a beamspring is yet another level of typing heaven.

But... my purpose for this message is for anyone who is wondering about the solenoid. The keyboard is really great in so many ways, but having the solenoid going just changes the whole experience in a way that I really hadn't expected. I thought it would just be some fun noise or whatever... but it makes me a much better typist.

I think it may have something to do with the fact that each keystroke provides exactly the same sound at the same intensity level and... it is perfectly simultaneous to actuation, so I get auditory, tactile and visual feedback that is extremely precise and consistent. In turn, I notice that I am not applying nearly as much force as I would on most any other keyboard, and am therefore more relaxed, speedier, and accurate on top of that!

So... if you are going to get one of these boards, get the solenoid! You wont be sorry.

Glad to hear and thanks for posting about the solenoid!

[genericusername57]

But... my purpose for this message is for anyone who is wondering about the solenoid. The keyboard is really great in so many ways, but having the solenoid going just changes the whole experience in a way that I really hadn't expected. I thought it would just be some fun noise or whatever... but it makes me a much better typist.

Agreed on the solenoid. The sound might be novel but the tactile feedback it provides is really nice for typing. I do find it has a bit of trouble keeping up with high typing speeds but around my normal 100 WPM comfortable typing speed it does fine. It might be due to not having found the perfect hang time for it, I tend to adjust it some clicks back and forth now and then to see if I think it works better. It's mostly noticable when typing two characters in quick succession, such as "suCCeSSion". I will probably remove the solenoid from the keyboard I'm using right now and put it on the beamspring when I get it, because I don't really get much opportunity to use it at home since it's so loud (but at work with my own office it's a different matter).

But as you said, it does provide something more than just novelty so if you've never tried using a solenoid I would also highly recommend getting at least one.

[engr]

Here is the photo of my F104 with those 3/4" rubber feet from McMaster. Combined with 1/8" adhesive rubber feet, the typing angle is pretty close to a Model M with flip-out feet extended, and the diameter is just right to leave the case screws exposed.

The USB cable in the photo is different from the original because this Friday the keyboard suddenly stopped working, so I opened the case and replaced the original cable with some random USB cable that I had lying around, after which it started working again. I then tried re-plugging in the original cable, and the keyboard again was working, so I am not sure if the issue was the cable, the connector, or something else. I figured I would replace the cable anyway, because 10-foot cable is just impractical for me and I had a feeling that I would eventually have to replace it anyway.

So far the cable design has been my only gripe with the Classic F104. The cable hole is about 3mm in diameter, way too small for most USB-C cables, and the hole edges are fairly sharp, which may not be good for the cable in the long term (even with the internal strain relief bracket). If there is going to be another round of these boards, I would suggest drilling out the hole to a diameter large enough for a cord grip or for typical USB-C cables, or, better yet, a detachable cable like on the Ultra Compact F104.

[YALE70]

So far I'm really loving the Classic F104. I christened mine with an aftermarket IBM industrial badge and it just looks and feels so nice. I don't consider myself a fast or even good typist in terms of technique, but I do genuinely feel more comfortable using this thing than I have with any other keyboard I've used long term. Also, the solenoid is no gimmick. It really does elevate the the typing feel to another level, though you'll want to leave it off if you're really trying to avoid causing a racket.

I did encounter some issues though; the standoff in the casting for the solenoid driver board on my example appeared to have an inner diameter that was too small for the provided screw, so I had to hot glue the board to the casing.

Secondly, I started noticing some prevalent off-center binding/scratchiness on a some of the unstabilized keys after a little over a week of use. I noticed there was a bit of light colored debris around the corner edges of the barrels from the keycap stem rubbing against them, and they did feel a bit sharp. I resolved this by just gently smoothing the corner edges of the barrels with the side of a flathead screwdriver blade. I don't know if this would've eventually worked itself out with more use/breaking-in but I haven't had the issue reoccur on any of the previously affected keys since doing that.

Lastly, the "LShift + RShift + N" command for enabling NKRO that was specified in the manual did not appear to work for me. I ended up just mapping it in Vial to Layer 2 as "Fn + Space + N".

Otherwise, this has been quite the upgrade from the Unicomp Model M I was using prior. I'm pretty confident this is going to end up being the last keyboard I hook up my primary system (outside of the ones I buy for fun, of course). Fantastic work!

20241022_111833.jpg (1.25 MiB) Viewed 8319 times

Note the little bit of white debris on the front edge of the barrel

20241002_233614.jpg (1.12 MiB) Viewed 8319 times

[Ellipse]

Nice photo! The badge goes well with the case and adds a nice touch.

I believe NKRO is enabled by default for NathanA firmware and not enabled for the previous pandrew firmware, which is still on the 62/77 boards which were manufactured beforehand. All other boards I believe use the NathanA firmware and the 62/77 boards can be updated with the new firmware.

I have done some testing on the barrel issue you noted but I cannot reproduce it and am not sure that anyone else posted about this issue. The squeaking may be due to an improperly seated spring and your efforts may have inadvertently moved around or stretched the spring so as to eliminate the extra sound. The key and barrel do not squeak on their own in my testing of loose keys and barrels assembled together. If the keys are being rotated while pressed down firmly all the way (they do have some rotation by design) then I'd imagine you would see some wear from the plastic due to friction.

Are you referring to the post on the top case for the solenoid (the other post on the top case is for the USB cable's p clip strain relief)? That hole should be 6-32 thread and there should have been a 6-32 bolt provided. I suggest testing the hole with another 6-32 bolt. I have installed a number of solenoids and drivers for these boards and have not noticed any issues. The solenoid driver should not be mounted to any points on the bottom of the case.

[YALE70]

Nice photo! The badge goes well with the case and adds a nice touch.

I believe NKRO is enabled by default for NathanA firmware and not enabled for the previous pandrew firmware, which is still on the 62/77 boards which were manufactured beforehand. All other boards I believe use the NathanA firmware and the 62/77 boards can be updated with the new firmware.

I have done some testing on the barrel issue you noted but I cannot reproduce it and am not sure that anyone else posted about this issue. The squeaking may be due to an improperly seated spring and your efforts may have inadvertently moved around or stretched the spring so as to eliminate the extra sound. The key and barrel do not squeak on their own in my testing of loose keys and barrels assembled together. If the keys are being rotated while pressed down firmly all the way (they do have some rotation by design) then I'd imagine you would see some wear from the plastic due to friction.

Thanks!

Yeah, my NKRO didn't appear to be enabled by default when I initially tested it so that's when I ran into trouble trying to enable it.

As for the barrels, it isn't so much an audible issue as it is one that I can feel - like extra resistance when I push down off center. On most of the keys I encountered, it was more prevalent on the bottom corners of the key though I'd sometimes feel it on the upper corners too. But I will note that I didn't even notice it until I spent some more time with the keyboard, so (not to draw any conclusions) it could be something that wears in with extended use. Nobody else seems to have encountered this on the prior models or the Round 2 models to date though, so hopefully it's just something that works itself out with time and/or I'm just being exceedingly picky. Just figured I'd raise it in case it comes up in the future.

Are you referring to the post on the top case for the solenoid (the other post on the top case is for the USB cable's p clip strain relief)? That hole should be 6-32 thread and there should have been a 6-32 bolt provided. I suggest testing the hole with another 6-32 bolt. I have installed a number of solenoids and drivers for these boards and have not noticed any issues. The solenoid driver should not be mounted to any points on the bottom of the case.

It is the post for the solenoid driver, yes. I used the larger of the screws provided - the two smaller screws being used to secure the the solenoid to the bottom plate. I should have some more 6-32 machine screws kicking around so I'll verify this once I have another opportunity to open the keyboard up.

[del20nd]

I took delivery of my F104 on Saturday. Right now I have it set up at my WFH workstation, sitting in for my F122 Battleship. Here are some pictures:











As you can see, the board looks exactly like an original Model M. This is the keyboard which I've been waiting for my whole life, a Model F with a fully standard layout. So far, with exception to some setup glitches which I'll mention below, I'm very satisfied with the result.

While the setup process was mostly straightforward to anyone that's dealt with rehabbing original Model F's, I did run into one frustrating issue with the black vertical key stabilizers. In the instructions it's explicitly stated that the stabilizer for the ISO enter should be keyed such that the large ear is pointing towards the left, 180 degrees rotated from the images in the guide. When I keyed it this way, it didn't work. It turned out that it worked perfectly when it was keyed the same way as the '+' key, with the large ear pointing toward the right. That was frustrating because the instruction didn't mention the variation, and getting that wrong can easily mean a complete teardown of the keyboard. I did have to pause the setup for a night to stop myself from doing something stupid to try to brute force the stabilizer. It was very frustrating in the moment.

To get it out, I modified the paper trick that's linked on the setup page. Paper wasn't grippy enough to pull the stabilizer out, so I used a piece of a flat silicone gasket instead, and that was grippy enough to get the job done.

Aside from that, it was just bending the spacebar stabilizer wire into shape (the instruction here worked for me perfectly) and the normal Model F process of getting the springs to seat during key installation, which anybody whose cleaned one of the OG Model F keyboards has been through.

I've only been using the board for two days now so I'm still forming opinions on it, but compared to my 122 key Model F, it feels like the tactility is just a little bit lighter. It's probably within spec to variations of the Model F's key feel over the course of its production and it may change as the keyboard breaks in, but it is noticeably different. I personally like the lighter touch a little bit better.

Again, I'm happy with what was delivered overall. I understand the reasons for not delivering a fully assembled board, but do wish that, at the very least, the stabilizers came tested and preinstalled, especially if there's undocumented variation in the orientation which they have to be installed. Getting them wrong can be a costly and annoying time sink. There's always a chance that you'll have to disassemble the keyboard either way, springs can come dislodged in shipping, etc, but I feel that just taking this one step would greatly reduce the risk.

[pilcher]

While the setup process was mostly straightforward to anyone that's dealt with rehabbing original Model F's, I did run into one frustrating issue with the black vertical key stabilizers. In the instructions it's explicitly stated that the stabilizer for the ISO enter should be keyed such that the large ear is pointing towards the left, 180 degrees rotated from the images in the guide. When I keyed it this way, it didn't work. It turned out that it worked perfectly when it was keyed the same way as the '+' key, with the large ear pointing toward the right. That was frustrating because the instruction didn't mention the variation, and getting that wrong can easily mean a complete teardown of the keyboard. I did have to pause the setup for a night to stop myself from doing something stupid to try to brute force the stabilizer. It was very frustrating in the moment.

Interesting. I didn't have to reverse the orientation of the vertical key stabilizers, but it did take a lot of force to get them in. (I found that the end of a normal sized Sharpie is the perfect size to push them in without permanently denting one's thumb.) Now I'm wondering if mine are in backwards.

[pilcher]

Again, I'm happy with what was delivered overall. I understand the reasons for not delivering a fully assembled board, but do wish that, at the very least, the stabilizers came tested and preinstalled, especially if there's undocumented variation in the orientation which they have to be installed. Getting them wrong can be a costly and annoying time sink. There's always a chance that you'll have to disassemble the keyboard either way, springs can come dislodged in shipping, etc, but I feel that just taking this one step would greatly reduce the risk.

My biggest "complaint" about shipping is that several of my springs were actually damaged by being mashed against the barrels. I had to remove those springs and straighten them out as much as I could, which inevitably isn't perfect (although I did ultimately get all of the keys working). I'm hesitant to suggest that the keyboards should be shipped with the springs not installed, because it would make setup quite a bit more work, but it would prevent the springs from being damaged in this way.

[pilcher]

I'm thinking of modding my black F104 by replacing the "built in" USB cable with one of these.

Any reason that this wouldn't work?

[YALE70]

Again, I'm happy with what was delivered overall. I understand the reasons for not delivering a fully assembled board, but do wish that, at the very least, the stabilizers came tested and preinstalled, especially if there's undocumented variation in the orientation which they have to be installed. Getting them wrong can be a costly and annoying time sink. There's always a chance that you'll have to disassemble the keyboard either way, springs can come dislodged in shipping, etc, but I feel that just taking this one step would greatly reduce the risk.

My biggest "complaint" about shipping is that several of my springs were actually damaged by being mashed against the barrels. I had to remove those springs and straighten them out as much as I could, which inevitably isn't perfect (although I did ultimately get all of the keys working). I'm hesitant to suggest that the keyboards should be shipped with the springs not installed, because it would make setup quite a bit more work, but it would prevent the springs from being damaged in this way.

Mine did as well. I had a few damaged keycaps too because UPS decided to play package football with the delivery (all eight pounds of it). These were all quickly replaced, but I do have some ideas on additional measures that could be taken to hopefully mitigate stuff like this from occurring on future shipments.

The loose component bags should be secured: I think them shifting around inside the box during transit is a big reason why springs are getting bent and whatnot. I would tie down, rubber band, or tape the bags to the keyboard so they can't move. I'd also try protecting the exposed barrels/springs with a thin sheet of cardboard or packing foam, so that the bags aren't resting directly on the springs.

Finally, I would also tape over the side gaps on the top of the box. Only the long bottom gap was taped over and in my case, I think something caught in one of those side gaps and completely ripped the end of the package open. The carrier had taped over the opening before I received the package.

Otherwise, I think the foam endcaps are fine - I don't think the box needs any additional padding, but given the limited interior space of the box, hopefully those ideas at least make it less likely that reckless carrier handling ends up causing actual damage to the keyboard or the components.