Model F troubleshooting

[OreoCookie]

I have received a Model F (a Classic Style F104 to be precise) last year, and I still have issues with sticky keys, in particular my right shift key and my space bar. Some days everything is working great, other days the right shift key gets stuck when pressed and the space bar either might stick or might actuate with delay (so that I'd type “Hell oworld” instead of “Hello world”). If the offending key were rarely used (e. g. Scroll Lock), I wouldn't care much, but I am using the right shift key and space constantly.

I have followed the instruction videos when setting up my keyboard and when trying to troubleshoot this issue. The instructional material mentions a break-in period (never had that for any other keyboard), but four months should be long enough.

I have tried the following:

• Repeatedly taken off the offending keys and slightly bent the space bar stabilizer (according to ~9:00 in the Model Full Setup Guide video) and key cap guiding pin/spring receptacle thingi (the other side) as described around 15:00 of the video.
• Verified that the springs are seated correctly and re-seated them.
• Made sure that the guiding sleeve for the right Shift key is of the right color (white and not black).
• Made sure that the guiding sleeve for the right Shift key is seated correctly.

What else can I try to fix the binding keys issue for good? Should I try silicon spray or some other form of lubrication (the Setup Guide says no to lubrication, but I am out of ideas)? Should I do something to the plastic sleeve that accepts the guide pin (not sure what to call it) of the keycap?

[Ellipse]

OreoCookie I recommend reading through the written manual from beginning to end, not just the hour-long setup video, as there are many recommended steps not that are not all shown in the video.

You may need to remove and re-seat or replace the shift and spacebar springs.

If the space bar gets stuck when pressed for example, the bar may need to be bent even more so that it is farther away from the vertical part (the back end) of both metal spacebar tabs, and these tabs should be pushed down a bit (so they don't touch the spacebar when it is pressed) but not too much or the spacebar would be more likely to get stuck.

The wiggle method (which includes burnishing the key stem and wiggling the stabilizer insert to move it closer to the middle of the key, without breaking it) is also recommended for larger keys. The right shift key can be troublesome and even on original boards it is not 100% like the less-wide keys.

There is no months-long break in for the keyboard to function normally; the needed adjustments from the written manual should be made in the initial setup of the keyboard and the keyboard should be working without issue from day one after all steps have been followed, unless there is a problem that needs fixing.

I do not recommend lubrication of any kind.

[OreoCookie]

Thanks for the response. Just in case it wasn't clear, I have also read the manual page on the Model F keyboards site. I only gave specific time stamps to show that I indeed did watch the video. The manual was necessary as some springs fell out of their sockets during transport. I had to disassemble the keyboard to find them. The pictures were helpful to install the springs correctly (the tail of the spring should be on the top, etc.).

Regarding your other suggestions, I have tried all of them, but one.

• I have tried re-seating the springs to no avail.
• Since there are no spare springs included, I could not replace them. That's the only suggestion I have not yet tried.
• I have tried bending the space bar stabilizer as you have described, but it is only 95 %. Since the space bar is one of the (perhaps the) most-used keys, this is still very annoying.
• I have tried the “wiggle method” to fix the binding issue of the right Shift key many, many times for the shift key, but it only solves the issue for a while and then re-occurs.
• The video and the manual makes reference to a break-in period, and my point is that I should be well past that.

Is there anything I can do? I would expect that these issues have to do with tolerances not stacking as they should and QC. I have never had a Model F-type keyboard, but none of my Model Ms had similar issues.

[Ellipse]

"Since there are no spare springs included, I could not replace them. That's the only suggestion I have not yet tried."

This is not accurate - the manual notes you can definitely switch out springs with other working springs to see if the issue is due to the spring itself, but I agree that not having spare parts makes things less convenient, though these spares are not needed in the short term. Initial setup section, point F, subpoint 7.

If that doesn't work the two keys can be replaced but again, if it is the spring that needs adjustment or replacement, many replacement keycaps will not fix the issue at all.

[OreoCookie]

"Since there are no spare springs included, I could not replace them. That's the only suggestion I have not yet tried."

This is not accurate - the manual notes you can definitely switch out springs with other working springs to see if the issue is due to the spring itself, […]

Why is what I wrote inaccurate? There were no additional springs included with my keyboard, and I just don't want to risk damaging other, working keys. Plus, unless the springs are too weak, they do function properly when the two keys in questions do not bind.

Initial setup section, point F, subpoint 7.

Which I remember reading (the photos I referenced were from Initial setup, point F, subpoint 8. Like I wrote, I have read the manual, and I don't think the issue can be fixed without getting “spare” parts.

If that doesn't work the two keys can be replaced but again, if it is the spring that needs adjustment or replacement, many replacement keycaps will not fix the issue at all.

I'd have to contact the owner again. Last time I contacted him, he simply dismissed me. I thought other people of the community had input other than the steps in the manual to fix the issue.

[wobbled]

Oreo its time to demand a replacement, Joe is only looking out for himself here and doing everything he can to not have to send you a new one.

[Ellipse]

My guess is that your spacebar wire needs to be bent even more, so much so that there is a 1mm or so gap for each of the 2 metal tabs between those tabs and the spacebar wire. I did not see a response indicating whether that was tried; my reading of your follow up reply indicates that you did not try to bend it further. Maybe sending a photo of the installed spacebar with metal tabs visible (remove some keys near the metal tabs) might be helpful.

Feel free to email me if you need additional help (I am the project coordinator). I have so many extra springs that if some are damaged it should not be a problem. The important thing is to follow the manual. If you follow the manual which highlights safety precautions throughout the steps, then you should not cause any damage to springs or other parts.

The point of switching the springs is to diagnose if it is an issue with a damaged spring.

If a spring arrived broken I usually send out a replacement without charge. However, sending free replacement parts does not fix most issues as almost all of the time the part is fine but it needs to be reseated or reinstalled, or the spring needs to be flipped upside down for example, so sending extra parts as the first step would not solve most issues.

Asking folks to follow everything in the manual is not dismissing them. Given the extremely small nature of the project I have to direct folks to the manual to set up their keyboards themselves, and to follow what is said there instead of deciding which steps they want to follow and which ones they don't want to follow. The last steps noted in the manual are to contact me after doing everything on the list of things to do. I can't afford to hire tech support folks or to dedicate more time to helping everyone one on one, with free shipping back and forth or in-home tech support as it would result in even higher costs and an even longer backlog than the current 1-2 month expectation. Everyone feel free to see my other postings for additional discussion.

Again I don't know who you are but please do feel free to email me if there is something in the manual that you don't understand but I feel that the manual is 100% comprehensive to fix all possible issues, as the manual includes a step of emailing me to determine if a part is broken.

If something is weird with your spacebar I would be happy to mail you another but that may not solve the issue if it is an issue with the spring, which is far more likely than an issue with the spacebar.

[OreoCookie]

My guess is that your spacebar wire needs to be bent even more, so much so that there is a 1mm or so gap for each of the 2 metal tabs between those tabs and the spacebar wire. I did not see a response indicating whether that was tried; my reading of your follow up reply indicates that you did not try to bend it further.

Yes, it was literally in the first bullet point of the OP: “[…] and slightly bent the space bar stabilizer (according to ~9:00 in the Model Full Setup Guide video) […]” I've tried that many times over the four months of ownership. Like I wrote: I have followed the manual and the instruction video.

Feel free to email me if you need additional help (I am the project coordinator).

Oh, ok.

I have so many extra springs that if some are damaged it should not be a problem.

May I suggest that you simply include spare springs then? Several springs got dislodged during transport and I almost didn't find one of them (I had to open the case and search all the nooks and crannies.)

The important thing is to follow the manual. If you follow the manual which highlights safety precautions throughout the steps, then you should not cause any damage to springs or other parts.

I don't know how often I can repeat this: I came here, because I have read/watched all instructional material (my original posts contains time stamps) and couldn't resolve the issues. I gave precise time stamps and referenced e. g. some of the pictures on your manual page.

Repeatedly saying “You should read the manual, you should be able to resolve all issues with the steps detailed there.” And you also wrote that customers should post on this forum for support, which I did.

The point of switching the springs is to diagnose if it is an issue with a damaged spring.

I understand that. But I don't want to risk damaging/breaking working switches. In your support material you mention that springs can be easily bent and without spares I didn't want to risk it.

I have had to re-seat three springs (which had dislodged during transport), and this was very finicky and difficult despite following the steps in the manual. Not wanting to risk further damage is not refusing to follow instructions. (Plus, I am not convinced that this is the actual issue.)

Asking folks to follow everything in the manual is not dismissing them.

No, but repeating to read the manual when the other person repeatedly makes clear that they have is. It comes across as either not reading posts carefully or dismissing others.

I think it is also important to accept that some issues cannot be solved by the procedures outlined in your material. I suspect this is an issue caused by mismatching tolerances, because of its intermittent nature. Perhaps the issue is the white insert into the barrel (not sure about the terminology) or that the barrel isn't perfectly aligned. Or the keycap. (I've had issues like that with bike components, too.) And should parts be out of spec by e. g. a fraction of a millimeter or so, it isn't easy to even detect with quality measuring tools.

Given the extremely small nature of the project I have to direct folks to the manual to set up their keyboards themselves, and to follow what is said there instead of deciding which steps they want to follow and which ones they don't want to follow.

I have supported many Kickstarter projects in the past, many of which were (when compared to the sales figure you posted on ModelFKeyboards.com of about $3.8 million) over an order of magnitude smaller, perhaps two. Yet, they had customer support and e. g. shipped replacements when their merchandise was faulty.

In basically all of these projects, QC is the most difficult step to e. g. achieve proper fit between components or making sure that things seal correctly not just on prototypes. That and software/firmware.

[…] as it would result in even higher costs and an even longer backlog than the current 1-2 month expectation.

I've paid around $500 for a keyboard, much more than the $150–$200 for the second-most expensive keyboard purchase (a Matias Tactile Pro right after it was released).

Matias did something similar to you, they decided to rebuild Alps-style switches and have done so successfully. I have no idea how sales figures compare, but I am not under the impression Matias is a huge company either.

If something is weird with your spacebar I would be happy to mail you another but that may not solve the issue if it is an issue with the spring, which is far more likely than an issue with the spacebar.

It isn't just the spacebar, but also the right Shift key and at times the Return key.

[Ellipse]

As I mentioned in the manual, the last step is to email me to discuss any issues that could not be resolved. The manual does not say that everything can be resolved without my help, but just that I am the last resort to get the keyboard set up and running.

The manual notes that you should discuss with me if you can't get something working after going through the manual. If me mailing you a few replacement springs and those 3 replacement keys does not work then I can take a look at the keyboard if you send it back to me. Without seeing the keyboard in person I may not notice something.

Please send me an email.