Elitekeyboards

[fossala]

Can you disclose how much you keep for yourself in p&p charges for packaging and your time?

[woody]

Seeing Brian talking about Topre and their plastic/dyes:

Some months ago a fellow GH/DT member helped me by proxying a red Topre ESC from EK. (Thanks again!)

Upon closer comparison of the red Topre ESC with HHKB's own I noticed the red ESC being subpar. Not loosing my sleep over it, but is there a reasonable explanation? Last I remember, Topre's colored keycap sets sold for a hefty amount.

[brian]

Brian...

Why should anyone outside of the USA buy from EliteKeyboards when, in your FAQ, you state:

"Please note that currently our Terms of Warranty Service do not apply for customers outside of the USA and Canada. Shipping internationally is done as a courtesy only and no warranty is available outside of the US and Canada. All products are tested before they are shipped and any issues related to DOA (Dead On Arrival) products will be dealt with on a case by case basis."

I might be willing to pay $50+ for postage on a $300 Keyboard, but I'm not willing to chance that, after some weeks or months, that keyboard dies, and I've lost $350+.

Hmm, number of $300 keyboard RMAs we have received in the last 3 years with mechanical: 3?

-Someone spilled coffee on their HHKB
-Someone had an HHKB with a damaged USB connector after 6 months.
-Someone had a Realforce with a spacebar spring that was offset slightly (simple fix).

...well, there *were* a couple people who just didn't believe the disclaimer we make about the printing on the black Topre keycaps essentially making them look blank...yea, yea, i sometimes take pity and soften up on the strict return policy when people get really emotional because they aren't as good of a typist as they thought they were.

What IS funny though, is that I read forums all over the web and I see whiner after whiner singing "Topre is just a glorified rubber dome, it's a ripoff, don't buy that sh%#" Now...I realize that most of these people probably don't own a Topre made board, but they probably don't understand what goes into one either.

I really should post some photos of the internal construction of these boards. The design is just overkill for consumer electronics in what's considered a disposable market like keyboards, and consequently they're comparatively quite costly. The boards are tested and visually inspected by people and robots multiple times down the assembly line. The result is a product that has a statistical failure rate of close to 1 in 10k in the first year of operation.

For comparison, not a single one of these Chinese and Taiwanese Cherry MX or ALPS based boards come off the assembly line with even a 1 in 100 failure rate...in the first day.

So, I don't think you have anything to worry about with a Topre based board:) As for the Leopolds, we do test them before we ship them. And recently we've completed setting up supply to the factory of our own US made LEDs, Japanese USB connectors (keyboard side), USB cables with Japanese connectors, and Japanese capacitors. These parts are only used for Leopolds supplied to EliteKeyboards. These changes have helped limit most RMAs to failed Cherry switches, which for the most part seem a statistical certainty. Fortunately, MX switches are pretty easy to replace.

[brian]

<snip>

I think the most important thing to remember is the 'case by case basis' thing.
The reality from my experience (and other Aussie friends) is that Brian still does a fantastic job correcting mistakes for international buyers.

I agree that the warning should probably be revised a bit to instil a little more confidence though.

Yes, we do try to fix mistakes and failures, within reason. I know when we sold FILCO Majestouch boards we had a few different batches where maybe 2 or 3 out of 100 had microcontroller failures (tin whiskers maybe?) after 6 months or a year. The exact cause of which was never determined. (inb4 Brian is spreading FUD again...Ripster). I did take pity on several of these individuals and shipped them free replacement keyboards, or in the case of the Tenkeyless, replacement controller boards.

Besides anecdotal evidence, I'm not sure how to really make that statement more confidence inspiring!

[002]

Well instead of the doom and gloom "Terms of Warranty Service do not apply for customers outside of the USA and Canada", you could just have the blurb about case-by-case basis and that people with queries or concerns about their product should contact support.

After all, you're selling quality products with low failure rates, so I'm wondering if there is some huge potential for you to lose a lot of money if you *were* offering a warranty service to overseas buyers?

[brian]

Can you disclose how much you keep for yourself in p&p charges for packaging and your time?

For domestic shipments we have a markup of a dollar or two to cover insurance, transaction fees, and the occasional "extended delivery area" charge (when someone lives in the sticks). Whatever is left goes to pay for using costly packing material; as we pack everything with giant bubble wrap, which last I checked is about 50 cents a meter, ugh.

International payments we receive not only have higher transaction fees, but since the shipping costs more, we must pay larger fees for the shipping cost too. Since we can't sell the product at a higher price to overseas customers only, we buffer overseas shipping charges by $2-8 bucks depending on the weight. My reference is 2-3.5% PayPal in the US wants, so I try to keep the margins consistent this way for all products, helps my sanity when setting margin while figuring in exchange rates...

Also, we're currently limited by our cart system right now in how many weight classes we can offer, so sometimes a small item will slip into a higher weight class. We usually catch these and give the customer a partial shipping refund, but admittedly there are always other costs; i.e. countries in the same shipping zone and weight class often have different transaction fees and shipping prices are constantly creeping up when I'm not looking. So please forgive me when I tell you that no one here is spending their day refunding $1 to people in Germany and sending $1 invoices to people in Spain. For the most part we try to balance it out without being noticeably unjust to anyone. Also, people who order 2 keyboards and accessories or 3 keyboards are usually getting a shipping discount that is below our cost.

[brian]

Seeing Brian talking about Topre and their plastic/dyes:

Some months ago a fellow GH/DT member helped me by proxying a red Topre ESC from EK. (Thanks again!)

Upon closer comparison of the red Topre ESC with HHKB's own I noticed the red ESC being subpar. Not loosing my sleep over it, but is there a reasonable explanation? Last I remember, Topre's colored keycap sets sold for a hefty amount.

Subpar Red Escs do not exist:)

Perhaps you discovered that Topre uses a slightly lighter red for the full keycap sets than they do for the red esc keys and WASD keys? Are you sure it's the model HH-REDESC from our store? I'm not sure what else it could be.

Yes, I think it's *really* confusing too, but the original full red keycap sets were specified by Leopold in Korea that way and what is done is done...so they ARE out there in the wild.

[brian]

Well instead of the doom and gloom "Terms of Warranty Service do not apply for customers outside of the USA and Canada", you could just have the blurb about case-by-case basis and that people with queries or concerns about their product should contact support.

After all, you're selling quality products with low failure rates, so I'm wondering if there is some huge potential for you to lose a lot of money if you *were* offering a warranty service to overseas buyers?

Absolutely. However...I've not been selling MY products designed by me with the parts I want. I'm selling other people's products (Topre I have no concern about, it's the stuff made in China or Taiwan.). So I have only limited control over the quality and reliability. For this reason I felt it necessary to put some responsibility on overseas customers, as previously my focus is a US-based business model until more products are under my control.

[kint]

just trolling, never bought of you before. Random quote on shipping from this thread:

....cheaper way to ship items to Europe? I've been very interested in the pink Topre keycap set for a while, especially since you lowered the price of the non-printed ones, but I just don't feel paying a shipping cost at $50 is worth it...

As for that I'll take it this doesn't weigh in at 1,7kg.

...I've answered this before on GH a few times over the years:)
There really isn't a cheap AND secure way to ship overseas. For example; we can ship an 87U to Europe with USPS Express Mail Service for right around $50, or with USPS Priority Service for right around $39, but if we ship with Priority, it not only takes longer to get their, but no one is responsible for it, so we need to add $3.50 insurance onto that $39. Now it's $42.50, and the delivery is still slower and less secure than EMS. For $7.50. So...I don't see the point in offering Priority service.

First Class mail would be even cheaper (and slower), but there is a 1.8kg (4lb) limit on this service, and pretty much all of our boards with the exception of the HHKB, tip 1.8kg when packed. So it's not really viable, and I wouldn't ship an HHKB with First Class mail.
... ...
BTW, the reason we can get these new lower international rates with FedEx is because we are loyal to them. ....

I understand the problem with sensitive electronics that weigh in some kgs. However applying the same thought to lightweight caps ? Wrong imo. USPS as any official postal service is heavily based upon the weight, and therefore the difference between them and a courier service is even bigger on caps only.
So it's basically USPS first class which is cheapest compared to the price of fedex matching USPS EMS? The argument whith the speed is rather invalid in my practical experience.

Second: If you ship outside the US in most cases customs declaration and tax processing is applied, it is certainly in all EU countries. Now this is where fedex becomes nasty, as they'll charge the customer a certain amount for that service, whereas USPS who always team up with the local postal services don't charge for that (better said: local postal authorities usually don't charge for that service) As a reference, fedex charges a 25€ amount for the processing in Germany afair, and won't release the parcel before they are paid.

I also doubt that you truly need several carriers for each country, fedex for domestic and USPS for lightweight international items should be more than sufficient.
I understand all your given reasons to stick with fedex, but your convenience is heavily based upon international customers expenses, imo.
No offense, just as a hint from someone restraining from buying anything in the US if the seller doesn't offer USPS, simply out of bad experience.

[brian]

I understand the problem with sensitive electronics that weigh in some kgs. However applying the same thought to lightweight caps ? Wrong imo. USPS as any official postal service is heavily based upon the weight, and therefore the difference between them and a courier service is even bigger on caps only.
So it's basically USPS first class which is cheapest compared to the price of fedex matching USPS EMS? The argument whith the speed is rather invalid in my practical experience.

The business is not Topre keycaps, It's 50 other products and Topre keycaps. As we do not yet have a custom crafted cart and shipping calculator, we cannot offer special shipping services for just one item. Usually if someone orders ONLY Topre keycaps, I partially refund their shipping, as I already stated.

Second: If you ship outside the US in most cases customs declaration and tax processing is applied, it is certainly in all EU countries. Now this is where fedex becomes nasty, as they'll charge the customer a certain amount for that service, whereas USPS who always team up with the local postal services don't charge for that (better said: local postal authorities usually don't charge for that service) As a reference, fedex charges a 25€ amount for the processing in Germany afair, and won't release the parcel before they are paid.

I also doubt that you truly need several carriers for each country, fedex for domestic and USPS for lightweight international items should be more than sufficient.
I understand all your given reasons to stick with fedex, but your convenience is heavily based upon international customers expenses, imo.
No offense, just as a hint from someone restraining from buying anything in the US if the seller doesn't offer USPS, simply out of bad experience.

USPS international services are utter crap. There I said it.

Seriously. I plan to move away from it as much as I can. I will continue to offer it to people who are crazy enough to use it, but I'd never recommend it.

They are absolutely unaccountable when a package is missing. And they have absolutely ZERO powers of observation or communication with the destination nor control over the transportation used. It's just a nightmare if something goes wrong, and getting them to pay claims takes months. They are the antithesis of "service."

Also, the only time I've heard of FedEx charging a brokerage fee after the fact is when they're shipping by ground in between neighboring countries and they need to cross a border. When shipped by Air the brokerage is supposed to be included in the shipping cost. When we do have a custom cart up and running it will calculate full tax, duty, and brokerage for as many countries as possible.

[fossala]

Pacelforce (royal mail) have a handling fee in the UK. 12.50 I think.

[therecorder]

Brian...

Here in Israel, FedEx and EMS do charge extra for retrieval from Customs. I recently had this happen to me on an order from Unicomp, shipped FedEx. The FedEx charge to Israel was $60.15 (heavier package), and then FedEx charged me another $35 (approximate) to get it out of customs, and to me. $85 to ship a $79 keyboard! (Not to mention the $13+ I had to pay the Israeli Government for VAT (17%))

This also happens with EMS orders from China... PCHome charges $10 to ship a keyboard to Israel, but EMS adds on a bunch for their services here in Israel.

[csm725]

Brian...

Here in Israel, FedEx and EMS do charge extra for retrieval from Customs. I recently had this happen to me on an order from Unicomp, shipped FedEx. The FedEx charge to Israel was $60.15 (heavier package), and then FedEx charged me another $35 (approximate) to get it out of customs, and to me. $85 to ship a $79 keyboard! (Not to mention the $13+ I had to pay the Israeli Government for VAT (17%))

This also happens with EMS orders from China... PCHome charges $10 to ship a keyboard to Israel, but EMS adds on a bunch for their services here in Israel.

You are the first other Israeli I've seen here that likes mechanical keyboards. We should hang out!

Yeah, PCHome's EMS got me hosed on customs fees and VAT (I paid $50 fo a $110 keyboard).

I have a mail forwarding address in the US and I elect to use USPS to ship the packages here, as in the end, it may take a couple days longer, but it saves me a good amount of cash.

[woody]

Subpar Red Escs do not exist:)

Shh, copycats don't sleep ..

Perhaps you discovered that Topre uses a slightly lighter red for the full keycap sets than they do for the red esc keys and WASD keys? Are you sure it's the model HH-REDESC from our store? I'm not sure what else it could be.

Yes, I think it's *really* confusing too, but the original full red keycap sets were specified by Leopold in Korea that way and what is done is done...so they ARE out there in the wild.

I think it should be HH-REDESC, but it was ordered and proxied by somebody else than me since I'm in EU.

Upon comparison with HHKB's original black-on-white ESC, there are few differences:
- red ESC is little bit thicker
- E12 marking on original vs. E15. The latter is also in bigger font and rotated 180 degrees
- red ESC has 'R' in the base of the circular stem
- red ESC has dimple/marking in one of the quadrants of the back
- original keycaps have sprue marks on their "upper" side, whereas red ESC doesn't have any on the sides

And that's just useless trivia. What initially caught my attention, was that red ESC's left/right walls exhibit very visible change in texture, as if somebody with greasy fingers touched it by the sides. Is that common on the colored Topre keycaps? Can't find it on the black-on-white HHKB.


EDIT: Professional cellphone picture:

redesc.jpg (206.43 KiB) Viewed 4215 times

[brian]

I think it should be HH-REDESC, but it was ordered and proxied by somebody else than me since I'm in EU.

Upon comparison with HHKB's original black-on-white ESC, there are few differences:
- red ESC is little bit thicker
- E12 marking on original vs. E15. The latter is also in bigger font and rotated 180 degrees
- red ESC has 'R' in the base of the circular stem
- red ESC has dimple/marking in one of the quadrants of the back
- original keycaps have sprue marks on their "upper" side, whereas red ESC doesn't have any on the sides

And that's just useless trivia. What initially caught my attention, was that red ESC's left/right walls exhibit very visible change in texture, as if somebody with greasy fingers touched it by the sides. Is that common on the colored Topre keycaps? Can't find it on the black-on-white HHKB.

I see what you mean about the difference between the stock HHKB keycaps and the HH-REDESC. It seems they're using different tooling altogether, but they are both from Topre. The letter E is the row letter and the number following it is the cavity number in the mold. The row lettering is like so:

copyright elitekeyboards.com 2012

hhkb_rows.png (41.87 KiB) Viewed 4083 times

The appearance of a texture change on the side of your's isn't that unusual with PBT, though it is a rather extreme case with your Esc key. If you'd like I can send you a replacement.

[woody]

Thanks for the explanations. The new molds eliminated the sprue marks on the side.
Thanks also for the replacement offer, I'll just keep it this way and avoid looking at the sides.
Have a successful business!

[longweight]

Hi Brian,

How much of the shipping could you refund on a full Topre cap set shipped to the UK?

Thanks

Long