Set down rules for the classifieds.
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Ascaii
- The Beard
- Location: Berlin, Germany
- Main keyboard: CM Novatouch, g80-1851
- Main mouse: Corsair M65
- Favorite switch: Ergo clears, Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0019
I know what fossala means. For one, we have had our share of people joining for the sole purpose of profiteering from the community. We also need to come up with some form of a rating system to flush out bad apples, resellers, and other undesirables.
I think an important step would be to select a dedicated moderator to simply watch over the market and offer assistance. Basically a senior member dedicated to organizing the flood. Not saying we should have one person writing the rules, but we should have one person enforcing them, taking some strain off webwit and the other admins.
The rules should be discussed in an open forum, perhaps a temporary seperate section led by the moderator-to-be of the marketplace.
I think an important step would be to select a dedicated moderator to simply watch over the market and offer assistance. Basically a senior member dedicated to organizing the flood. Not saying we should have one person writing the rules, but we should have one person enforcing them, taking some strain off webwit and the other admins.
The rules should be discussed in an open forum, perhaps a temporary seperate section led by the moderator-to-be of the marketplace.
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mintberryminuscrunch
- Location: Germany
- DT Pro Member: -
http://deskthority.net/deskthority-rela ... 96-30.html ++
webwit wrote:There are a lot of people who want rules to prevent other people posting stuff they don't like, but I find most of this is just a matter of opinion.
The four founders specifically set up this forum as a no-rules, free-opinion board except what is forbidden by law, because this hobby mostly attracts intelligent people who like to engage in their hobby without, for example, some crazy duck or other admin policing what they may or may not say. This has worked well so far with few exceptions (glossywhite and ripster spring to mind for endless spamming) which can be handled. The idea is that if you don't like a certain post, you can speak your opinion or ignore it, but forbidding it leads to all kinds of problems. You may agree with the moderators on one rule. You may not on the next. And one moderator may be good at his job, while the next may not. Also, I don't think a lot of admin is interested in moderating your ass (well maybe with one or two exceptions, but I don't see them moderating). We have better things to do, like obsessing over keyboards.
A good example how this cannot be divided is the problem of people editing out completed sales. I hate that. But people own their own posts. And may have a different opinion. We can have some guidelines stating it is frowned upon to edit out the prices and such, but people still own their own posts. The alternative is that -I- and the other founders own your posts. Do you want that? This is really a flat community in terms of hierarchy. It's just a bunch of guys obsessing over keyboards. Some take care of hosting and such. See it as a bunch of guys who meet in a pub to discuss whatever they obsess over. Do you really want two assholes to "lead" and tell you what you may or may not say or do? Or do you want equality, and if you think someone is an asshole, you deal with it, either by speaking your mind or by ignoring?
There are similar problems with ranking. With a relatively small community, in the end what you'll have is a bunch of people ranking their keyboard friends, with one or two exceptions, which are well known. I don't want to rank my buddies. Maybe that is not realistic with growth. But with this size it will be mostly anecdotal. Like one guy gives another a bad rating over some fight, and who's gonna judge who was right. Not me, please. Make up your own mind, without some rank attached to it.
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webwit
- Wild Duck
- Location: The Netherlands
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- DT Pro Member: 0000
- Contact:
Ranks are like the military. One guy has three stars, the other four stars! Ouch! What does this mean, guy B is superior/better? As labelled by such and such collective? This appeals to teenagers and people in uniform? What were we talking about? Oh yeah. Keyboards, man...
- webwit, who does not like ranks
- webwit, who does not like ranks
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mintberryminuscrunch
- Location: Germany
- DT Pro Member: -
I guess the suggestion is more a burden than a rank, much like the Oracle.
But I wouldn't give it to one person.
Maybe trolling would solve the supposed issue , too. (I'm serious)
But I wouldn't give it to one person.
Maybe trolling would solve the supposed issue , too. (I'm serious)
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mintberryminuscrunch
- Location: Germany
- DT Pro Member: -
It would help if you name the topics you are referring to
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Ascaii
- The Beard
- Location: Berlin, Germany
- Main keyboard: CM Novatouch, g80-1851
- Main mouse: Corsair M65
- Favorite switch: Ergo clears, Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0019
While I definitely agree with your post and postition, webwit, I see a lack of documentation in the Market that I wish we had.
A simple feedback system would allow tracking of successful and unsuccessful trades in the market. I dont think it should be an open rating system, as overclock.net uses for example, for the reason you mentioned. It is still possible to fool the system, by selling small items repeatedly and then going for a large scam. This has happened on other forums I have been a part of in the past. A dedicated scam artist will always find a way.
As for moaning in threads...yes, that is a solution, though a crude one that I personally feel silly for. Yes, it might shoo away the fools, but it sure makes a bad first impression for any new users/guests browsing the site. I would much prefer to be able to close or ask a mod to close such threads quietly without hassle. It bothers me when crap topics get bumped to the top of the marketplace by silly comments or spamming...dropping serious threads to the next page.
But I agree, there is no perfect answer...someone will always pull the short straw. If the majority here shares your view, I will gladly slink back to my corner and continue as usual.
A simple feedback system would allow tracking of successful and unsuccessful trades in the market. I dont think it should be an open rating system, as overclock.net uses for example, for the reason you mentioned. It is still possible to fool the system, by selling small items repeatedly and then going for a large scam. This has happened on other forums I have been a part of in the past. A dedicated scam artist will always find a way.
As for moaning in threads...yes, that is a solution, though a crude one that I personally feel silly for. Yes, it might shoo away the fools, but it sure makes a bad first impression for any new users/guests browsing the site. I would much prefer to be able to close or ask a mod to close such threads quietly without hassle. It bothers me when crap topics get bumped to the top of the marketplace by silly comments or spamming...dropping serious threads to the next page.
But I agree, there is no perfect answer...someone will always pull the short straw. If the majority here shares your view, I will gladly slink back to my corner and continue as usual.
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Halvar
- Location: Baden, DE
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- Favorite switch: Beam & buckling spring, Monterey, MX Brown
- DT Pro Member: 0051
As a newbie in this forum, when I read kbdfr's conversation with monedas here today:
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... t5743.html
I thought that it's really not self-explanatory what is an accepted behaviour in the marketplace forum and what isn't. There seem to be some unwritten rules that have formed over the years, and in my opinion it would be better if they were written down somewhere where newbies and especially people that only register to sell their stuff can read and be referred to them. There's all this "you should have" "you could have" stuff going on there, and no newbie can even discern (in this case) kbdfr's personal opinions from those held by a majority of the community, so there is a lot of discussion going on that just wouldn't be there if kbdfr could refer to some rules written down somewhere.
Regarding this case, I for one have no problem with people promoting their relevant ebay auctions on DT -- nobody can ask a seller who is not even an active member here to sell stuff on DT exclusively, so if they do sell it on ebay, I'm fine with them informing me here on DT about their auction. I see that as an advantage for the community as well as the seller. Of course it's nice and fair if they donate afterwards in cases where Deskthority has boosted their profit, but then again it would be just as fair to ask the winning bidder for a donation, too, and in both cases it's finally still up to them if they do it or not.
So this is just an example where my intuition seems to be different from those of other community members. However, I guess that, like me, most people don't have a problem with just abiding to community rules. However, if there aren't any at all or if there are only unwritten ones, we'll always have these unpleasant discussions where some long-time member tries to tell people what they should have done after they have already done the opposite. And that long-time member can't even quote any rules to make his point, but just more or less has to state his personal opinion, which in turn leads to repeating discussions every single time.
So I think writing down some rules or "marketplace philosophy" or something like that would make sense, even though you don't really want to enforce them the hard way.
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... t5743.html
I thought that it's really not self-explanatory what is an accepted behaviour in the marketplace forum and what isn't. There seem to be some unwritten rules that have formed over the years, and in my opinion it would be better if they were written down somewhere where newbies and especially people that only register to sell their stuff can read and be referred to them. There's all this "you should have" "you could have" stuff going on there, and no newbie can even discern (in this case) kbdfr's personal opinions from those held by a majority of the community, so there is a lot of discussion going on that just wouldn't be there if kbdfr could refer to some rules written down somewhere.
Regarding this case, I for one have no problem with people promoting their relevant ebay auctions on DT -- nobody can ask a seller who is not even an active member here to sell stuff on DT exclusively, so if they do sell it on ebay, I'm fine with them informing me here on DT about their auction. I see that as an advantage for the community as well as the seller. Of course it's nice and fair if they donate afterwards in cases where Deskthority has boosted their profit, but then again it would be just as fair to ask the winning bidder for a donation, too, and in both cases it's finally still up to them if they do it or not.
So this is just an example where my intuition seems to be different from those of other community members. However, I guess that, like me, most people don't have a problem with just abiding to community rules. However, if there aren't any at all or if there are only unwritten ones, we'll always have these unpleasant discussions where some long-time member tries to tell people what they should have done after they have already done the opposite. And that long-time member can't even quote any rules to make his point, but just more or less has to state his personal opinion, which in turn leads to repeating discussions every single time.
So I think writing down some rules or "marketplace philosophy" or something like that would make sense, even though you don't really want to enforce them the hard way.
Last edited by Halvar on 13 May 2013, 11:49, edited 2 times in total.
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Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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- DT Pro Member: µ
Yes, everything Halvar said.
Webwit's entirely right about post ownership and the benefit of a flat hierarchy. We could just use a cheatsheet for newbs (and I'm still one myself) to get up to speed on what's community practice. Much better to be able to refer people straight there when in doubt. And they are still just as free to ignore it if they like. Just without the merry complacency that the silent majority of the forum must think them right.
I doubt any of the principles we're thinking of here (sellers leave and mark sold items in their posts, don't reuse your previous sales thread for a whole new batch of stuff, expect and welcome "threadcrapping" with rolling eyes because we'll do it anyway…) are controversial. Enforcing them would be. But we don't have to! The current "system" of actively complaining is quite good enough at the forum's current scale. It'd just help a bit if we had a centralised discussion of such issues with a nice and newb friendly summary of what our unenforced preferences are.
What I see here right now is so much better than Geekhack and elsewhere it's obvious that the culture is what makes Deskthority different. Culture is self-regulating. It just takes a while for newcomers to acclimate.
Webwit's entirely right about post ownership and the benefit of a flat hierarchy. We could just use a cheatsheet for newbs (and I'm still one myself) to get up to speed on what's community practice. Much better to be able to refer people straight there when in doubt. And they are still just as free to ignore it if they like. Just without the merry complacency that the silent majority of the forum must think them right.
I doubt any of the principles we're thinking of here (sellers leave and mark sold items in their posts, don't reuse your previous sales thread for a whole new batch of stuff, expect and welcome "threadcrapping" with rolling eyes because we'll do it anyway…) are controversial. Enforcing them would be. But we don't have to! The current "system" of actively complaining is quite good enough at the forum's current scale. It'd just help a bit if we had a centralised discussion of such issues with a nice and newb friendly summary of what our unenforced preferences are.
What I see here right now is so much better than Geekhack and elsewhere it's obvious that the culture is what makes Deskthority different. Culture is self-regulating. It just takes a while for newcomers to acclimate.
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Halvar
- Location: Baden, DE
- Main keyboard: IBM Model M SSK / Filco MT 2
- Favorite switch: Beam & buckling spring, Monterey, MX Brown
- DT Pro Member: 0051
Exactly -- thanks Muirium, you said it much better (and shorter) than me.Muirium wrote:Webwit's entirely right about post ownership and the benefit of a flat hierarchy. We could just use a cheatsheet for newbs (and I'm still one myself) to get up to speed on what's community practice.
...
What I see here right now is so much better than Geekhack and elsewhere it's obvious that the culture is what makes Deskthority different. Culture is self-regulating. It just takes a while for newcomers to acclimate.
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kbdfr
- The Tiproman
- Location: Berlin, Germany
- Main keyboard: Tipro MID-QM-128A + two Tipro matrix modules
- Main mouse: Contour Rollermouse Pro
- Favorite switch: Cherry black
- DT Pro Member: 0010
I wouln't be opposed to rules being defined, but on the other hand I think they are not really needed.
People who know how to behave will not pee on your doorstep even if they see no sign saying "don't pee on my doorstep",
and people who don't know how to behave will do it even if there is a sign.
Halvar reviving this thread instead of creating a new one is a good example of that: there is no written rule about that, but somehow he knew or found out the topic had already been discussed, and he felt it would be good manners not to start the discussion again but build upon what had already been said about that.
To me, good manners is the key word.
I'm not fundamentally opposed at all to people advertising their eBay sales on DT. For sure it helps not only the seller, but also those DT members who wouldn't have been aware of a particular eBay sale and this way are able to put their hands on something they would otherwise have missed (guilleguillaume
). So nothing to object.
But I do expect someone who enters a place for the first time to say "Hello" or introduce themselves or just say a few words to those who already form a community.
And I do expect them to do that even if they are not told to.
Nothing of that kind in Moneda's first ever post. It was just plain business (note this is the complete quote):
It's just "why should I care about anything else than myself".
So I for one react to that kind of behaviour the same way I do in real life
People who know how to behave will not pee on your doorstep even if they see no sign saying "don't pee on my doorstep",
and people who don't know how to behave will do it even if there is a sign.
Halvar reviving this thread instead of creating a new one is a good example of that: there is no written rule about that, but somehow he knew or found out the topic had already been discussed, and he felt it would be good manners not to start the discussion again but build upon what had already been said about that.
To me, good manners is the key word.
I'm not fundamentally opposed at all to people advertising their eBay sales on DT. For sure it helps not only the seller, but also those DT members who wouldn't have been aware of a particular eBay sale and this way are able to put their hands on something they would otherwise have missed (guilleguillaume
). So nothing to object.But I do expect someone who enters a place for the first time to say "Hello" or introduce themselves or just say a few words to those who already form a community.
And I do expect them to do that even if they are not told to.
Nothing of that kind in Moneda's first ever post. It was just plain business (note this is the complete quote):
Feel free to disagree, but I find this is bad manners. It is impolite, it is rude.Monedas wrote:White/blue, grey/blue keycaps.
Worldwide free shipping, taken from a 1989 olivetti keyboard manufactured by cherry. Somebody already bid 20$
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 1132133672
It's just "why should I care about anything else than myself".
So I for one react to that kind of behaviour the same way I do in real life
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ne0phyte
- Toast.
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2
- Main mouse: Mionix Avior 7000
- Favorite switch: Topre 45g, MX Blue
- DT Pro Member: 0003
To quote myself:
More dead accounts of people who only register to promote their auctions (not even offer to sell here first) isn't really helpful and I don't want to see ebay auctions of random people all over the marketplace suppressing genuine offers and asks from community members.
I don't see a problem with people posting their auctions either, but only coming here to do so is not cool. I lurked here and at geekhack for quite some time before I "chose" DT. Mainly because it seemed more mature and less chaotic.To take something (attention to your auction; more money) you should give back a bit or at least don't leave as soon as you sold your stuff.
More dead accounts of people who only register to promote their auctions (not even offer to sell here first) isn't really helpful and I don't want to see ebay auctions of random people all over the marketplace suppressing genuine offers and asks from community members.
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Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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- DT Pro Member: µ
The only part of the process we're talking about changing here is when:
1. Someone turns up and misbehaves a bit.
2. Members get annoyed and post on the threads in question to explain what pisses them off.
3. Said newcomer tells responders to stick their "opinions" somewhere anatomically inconvenient. Who asked them? Etc.
A step 4 would help resolve the "authority" issues present in the feedback loop formed by 2 and 3. The suggestion being:
4. Community members point newcomer to a clear statement of the basic rules of our community. One they didn't have to compose yet again on the spot.
Whether the newcomer decides that "the rules stink" or not is entirely up to them. The important bit is that they have to make the decision. Not just shrug off complaints as irritable hecklers trying to ruin their threads.
Communities work based on feedback. Let's optimise it.
1. Someone turns up and misbehaves a bit.
2. Members get annoyed and post on the threads in question to explain what pisses them off.
3. Said newcomer tells responders to stick their "opinions" somewhere anatomically inconvenient. Who asked them? Etc.
A step 4 would help resolve the "authority" issues present in the feedback loop formed by 2 and 3. The suggestion being:
4. Community members point newcomer to a clear statement of the basic rules of our community. One they didn't have to compose yet again on the spot.
Whether the newcomer decides that "the rules stink" or not is entirely up to them. The important bit is that they have to make the decision. Not just shrug off complaints as irritable hecklers trying to ruin their threads.
Communities work based on feedback. Let's optimise it.
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Halvar
- Location: Baden, DE
- Main keyboard: IBM Model M SSK / Filco MT 2
- Favorite switch: Beam & buckling spring, Monterey, MX Brown
- DT Pro Member: 0051
I demand not strict but transparent rules. Some of those in Muirium's picture are transparent, right?
Sorry for digging this up a second time.
As I understand it, the majority here has the standpoint that registering on DT only to buy or sell something constitutes an abuse of the community in some way.
Could someone who thinks so and is able to write non-embarrassing English write a short statement to that effect as a new thread tagged with [Help] in the marketplace forum? Just stating that this behaviour is frowned upon and why? So we could make that sticky, much like the existing thread about putting the location in the profile?
I would do it myself if I shared that opinion (and could write better English), but I'm kind of sick of letting newly registered members run into that trap and yelling at them afterwards for doing something they couldn't know was wrong without reading lots of old threads, like in a recent thread in the German subforum. We should give people a chance to find out about this by reading the sticky threads. I know there will be people who won't read it anyway or don't care, but they can at least be yelled at with a reason afterwards.
Sorry for digging this up a second time.
As I understand it, the majority here has the standpoint that registering on DT only to buy or sell something constitutes an abuse of the community in some way.
Could someone who thinks so and is able to write non-embarrassing English write a short statement to that effect as a new thread tagged with [Help] in the marketplace forum? Just stating that this behaviour is frowned upon and why? So we could make that sticky, much like the existing thread about putting the location in the profile?
I would do it myself if I shared that opinion (and could write better English), but I'm kind of sick of letting newly registered members run into that trap and yelling at them afterwards for doing something they couldn't know was wrong without reading lots of old threads, like in a recent thread in the German subforum. We should give people a chance to find out about this by reading the sticky threads. I know there will be people who won't read it anyway or don't care, but they can at least be yelled at with a reason afterwards.
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Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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- DT Pro Member: µ
I'll give it a shot. And I'm still in favour of sending such rules to new members right in their registration emails, as well as making a sticky thread for us to point to whenever someone needs told.
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Acanthophis
- Location: Germany
- DT Pro Member: -
Yes, a quick short notice or link to said sticky after registration should be enough to warrant me barking at them, if they still choose to do so.
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CeeSA
- Location: Westerwald, Germany
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- Contact:
I totally agree to kbdfr! Rules do not ensure that the people do have behavior. That is a question of character, or even educational.
I am glad I could see right away wether someone is a nice guy or even an asshole. Whatever he or she is posting incl. Sale Threads.
I am absolutely against the rules!
I am glad I could see right away wether someone is a nice guy or even an asshole. Whatever he or she is posting incl. Sale Threads.
I am absolutely against the rules!
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tlt
- Location: Sweden
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- DT Pro Member: -
Buying and selling stuff is a big part of this community. How do you get in to the community if that is all you want to do? Has this become a problem? I'm against rules if there isn't a really good reason for them.
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Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
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- DT Pro Member: µ
Hmm, there is something to be said for getting a good read on someone's character when the first thing they do is post their own ebay auction. The Rite of Threadcrapping is a vital part of DT, if a tedious one…
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Halvar
- Location: Baden, DE
- Main keyboard: IBM Model M SSK / Filco MT 2
- Favorite switch: Beam & buckling spring, Monterey, MX Brown
- DT Pro Member: 0051
I totally agree with that for ethical rules that are universal, like general netiquette rules, but not for those that are community specific. The rule that using the marketplace is limited to people who are willing to be part of the community is not self-evident IMO, even though it may seem so for people that have been here long enough.CeeSA wrote: ↑I totally agree to kbdfr! Rules do not ensure that the people do have behavior. That is a question of character, or even educational.
However, the rule that you read at least (!) the stickies before you post in a forum to find out what the local conventions are -- that definitely has been a universal netiquette rule for as long as forums existed.
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Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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- DT Pro Member: µ
Or at least you've read *the titles* of the sticky threads! Sadly, most people don't even bother doing that, or we would never have to ask what country they're in continuously for shipping etc.