German company GMK does MX 2shots

[rodtang]

There should be enough people with 1800's and there are misc other boards that have random single width modifiers (choc mini has one single unit alt for example)

These modifiers are nice and all but I think some serious planning of the big group buy should start even though it won't happen for a few months.

[inlikeflynn]

No, the good 1800 have 1.5 :p. Yes you are correct. If there is enough 1800/11900/? owners that need those 1x keys we can see about include them too. I was mostly thinking in terms of the most common mass production and kit boards.

yea it would be nice if there was 7 1x keys in there for the G80-186x boards, but that probably is asking too much.
I've just been buying 2 or more of the existing tsangan or RGB type of kits so that I get enough 1x keys for my G80-1863.
That is what i'm planning todo here as well with the list as lysol described it

[Soarer]

And a 1x 0/Ins for using -3000 sets on -1800 'boards. And a 2x 0/Ins for using -1800 sets on -3000 'boards.

Hell, this is nothing compared to what 'everyone else' will suggest

[IvanIvanovich]

With the BIG sets, as in the full sets we will make sure to get ALL of it. For now we are trying to get a good selection of keys while still trying to keep it kind of light as there are some other things not include like different size backspace.
I'm well aware of the need for some adapter keys like numpad 0, 1.5 \| (or whatever relevant legend for ANSI DE/FR/?) key to adapt ISO to ANSI and so on. Believe me I am in good need for some of those kinds of things myself.

[kbdfr]

I'm pretty sure we will be starting above 100. They aren't SP.
Mod pack will have:
key | size | qty
tab 1.5 qty 1
caps lock stepped 1.75 qty 1
caps lock full touch 1.75 qty 1
shift 1.25 qty 1
shift 1.75 qty 1
shift 2.25 qty 1
shift 2.75 qty 1
ctrl 1.25 qty 2
ctrl 1.5 qty 2
alt 1.25 qty 2
alt 1.5 qty 2
win 1.25 qty 2
win 1x qty 2
menu 1.25 qty 1
menu 1x qty 1
ANSI enter 2.25 qty 1
ISO enter qty 1
backspace 2x qty 1
Fn (TBD)

CMYK set will have all the same sizes for the shift, ctrl and alt keys listed above, but only those keys.
Also looking into space bars which will be offered seperate if so on this first round, and will investigate clear first shot and windowed keys for next time for a lock key pack.

What about Alt Gr?
On all European keyboards whatever the language, you don't just have a left and a right Alt key, but two keys acting differently and having different legends.
While the left one is lettered "Alt" like on ANSI boards, the right one is "Alt Gr".

[rindorbrot]

Yes, alt gr please, too

[kbdfr]

By the way, to me the Alt Gr key is (no pun intended) the key to the mod pack.

If it's included, I'll gladly buy the whole pack just to get hold of it.
But if it's not, I'm definitely out because I simply do not need any of the other keys.

[HzFaq]

Another +1 to the single unit 1800 keys and another +1 to an Alt Gr here please.

[Grond]

Do they do doubleshot win key? I thought that didn't exist. What about a couple of blanks for non-windows users?
Also, will capslock feature the handbag or not?

[mbodrov]

Almost great for -1800 as well, but would need a couple more single width keys...

Code: Select all

key | size | qty
ctrl   1      2
alt    1      2

As pointed out previously, 1800 layouts need more than that. The Insert-Delete-PgUp-PgDn cluster has been moved to another row, thus a different profile: the height is different even though width is the same. This also applies to the numpad-minus. All added up, to please 1800 owners you have to include almost a dozen 1800-specific keys that aren't of much use otherwise. That's the reason it wasn't offered in Lysol's dyesub group buy, for example. As somebody who loves my 1800, I can't say I'm happy about it, but I can see it from the perspective of a group buy organizer.

[IvanIvanovich]

This is true. We will try our best to include as much as possible without driving the price sky high when we get into the full sets.
So we have some preliminary quote from GMK, and will be getting an IC/poll to determine colorway going later in the day once we have organized all the info and have some mock ups completed. We are looking at roughly 20EUR/ea for the modifier pack as outlined
Mod pack will have:
key | size | qty
tab 1.5 qty 1
caps lock stepped 1.75 qty 1
caps lock full touch 1.75 qty 1
shift 1.25 qty 1
shift 1.75 qty 1
shift 2.25 qty 1
shift 2.75 qty 1
ctrl 1.25 qty 2
ctrl 1.5 qty 2
alt 1.25 qty 2
alt 1.5 qty 2
win 1.25 qty 2
win 1x qty 2
menu 1.25 qty 1
menu 1x qty 1
ANSI enter 2.25 qty 1
ISO enter qty 1
backspace 2x qty 1
Fn (TBD)

With a minimum order of 400 of this set. For CMYK (same options as above for shifts, alts, ctrls only), 12EUR/ea also 400 quantity. ESC pack (4 colorway include) 5EUR/ea.
So that can give you a rough idea of what we will be looking at and that the minimums are higher than what many are used to with dealing with SP. I feel it's still manageable however and between all the keyboard communities we shouldn't have too hard time to achieve that.

[dirge]

and that the minimums are higher than what many are used to with dealing with SP.

minimums are higher? double my order in for 2 please !

[kbdfr]

No Alt Gr...

[damorgue]

400 sets. Ouch

Same thing as MOQ of 200pcs at 40Eur, and everyone gets two I suppose

[IvanIvanovich]

Right alt, same thing no? I'm not sure if adding another 'different' legend will do anything to price, but we can see if it is an actual issue. I don't mind it either way myself, so I am indifferent.

Sure, you can look the MOQ that way. As generally it really is about the money amount more than a real quantity of anything so it could probably be one set for 8000EUR if someone wanted to pay it or 800 set at 10EUR or whatever theoretically.

[damorgue]

As generally it really is about the money amount more than a real quantity of anything so it could probably be one set for 8000EUR if someone wanted to pay it or 800 set at 10EUR or whatever theoretically.

I'd like to point out that the first case is ALWAYS true. The second one isn't.

The first case means they get the same amount of money but only has to make one set, or throw away the extra sets. The second case requires them to produce more, and is in no way guaranteed. Actually, it will likely not be possible at all.

[7bit]

Just for better understanding:

MOQ of 400 of each key in each color????

[kbdfr]

Right alt, same thing no? I'm not sure if adding another 'different' legend will do anything to price, but we can see if it is an actual issue. I don't mind it either way myself, so I am indifferent. […]

[…] On all European keyboards whatever the language, you don't just have a left and a right Alt key, but two keys acting differently and having different legends.
While the left one is lettered "Alt" like on ANSI boards, the right one is "Alt Gr".

There's no "right Alt" key on European keyboards, regardless of IT, ES, DE, FR, UK, SE, FI, NO..., but a "Alt Gr" key.

[prava]

Everybody seems to be fascinated by weird colours - and at the end of such a group buy nearly everybody's going to have the same exotic keyboard. Why not then stick to the classics?

It's a pity French layout (AZERTY) is obviously not going to be considered at first

Anyway, one thing that would be really interesting is a sort of catalogue of all those 5000 or so keycaps. I'm sure there are tons of them we are not even aware of, like some of the legends of the G80-2000 (pic by sixty):



or those on the G80-2551 that flooded eBay a few months ago (pic by Tarkoon):

I've got some 2551 in the basement, interested?

(NIB )

[kbdfr]

[…] I've got some 2551 in the basement, interested?

(NIB )

No thanks, I already sold mine

My point was just that Cherry made keycaps we are not even aware of.
f the molds still exist, yum!

[zulios]

It's a pity French layout (AZERTY) is obviously not going to be considered at first

If the MOQ is correct, I sincerely doubt we could have it produced, the FR user base is not large enough I believe.

[woody]

I sure hope in the not too distant future there will be such sets in just plain vintage black on beige.

Please, and with darker modifiers.

[guilleguillaume]

I had to write down my opinion on GH after the troop of ANSI-only GB users:

It's pretty funny to see how the average geekhack user doesn't give a f*ck about non-US users and our layouts.

The only thing we ask is for our own layouts to be considered having in mind that we have helped to reach the MOQ in every single GB that have been made and we just received blank keys to fit on ISO keyboards most of the time or not even that. To have some great sets we have to deal with missing keycaps sometimes and wrong number cluster symbols every single time. You wouldn't want to receive 4 extra keys to make us pay less for a set that could fit ANSI and ISO keyboards.

What would you think if Lysol and Dan decided we're only going to purchase ISO DE layout? None of you would be happy with that decission except for a few.

That's how we feel most of the time. Some of you only care about your ANSI layout and nothing else.

I can remember how many of us received an useless ANSI number row in Round 3 and had to purchase our extra layout keys separately having to pay for both when we only needed one and wasn't ANSI. And of course extra layout keys weren't cheap.

That's not the way to go but we've made sacrifices many times receiving keys we don't need and paying for them so everyone could get their sets cheaper and some of you won't even think about it or won't even think about receiving 4 keys.

How about looking at the situation from another point of view?

Not that I'm hurt but had to say something about that

[korne]

I agree with u gulleguillaume, some people usually forget we are a comunity and we need to help eachother

[dirge]

Erm, so they don't want to contribute by buying 10 surplus keys but it's okay for ISO users to buy 104 ? Quite the selfish attitude..

[tinnie]

Erm, so they don't want to contribute by buying 10 surplus keys but it's okay for ISO users to buy 104 ? Quite the selfish attitude..

hmm... 'mericans is selfish

[kbdfr]

I think it is difficult for them to imagine the rest of the world is not just "the rest".

Even lysol, who truly is community-oriented and well aware of the diversity of layouts, did not recognize at first that the absence of a single key (Alt Gr) is not just a minor issue. He at least recognized there is a problem there, while most of the other guys over there think most of the keycaps will somehow fit our keyboards and we should be content with that.

Here is a list of all keycaps in lysol's original Modifer Pack list (with added "Alt Gr"). I divided the list in two parts: the blue keycaps are those I want, the red ones those I have no use for:
Ctrl ( 2x): 1.25
Alt / Alt Gr (1x each): 1.25
Shift (4 keys): 1.25, 1.75, 2.25, 2.75
Ctrl (4 keys; 2x each): 1.0, 1.5
Alt / Alt Gr (4 keys; 1x each): 1.0, 1.5
Windows (4 keys; 2x each): 1.0, 1.25
Menu (2 keys): 1.0, 1.25
Tab (1 key): 1.5
Caps Lock (2 keys): Stepped, Full-touch
Enter (2 keys): ANSI 2.25, ISO
Backspace (1 key): 2.0
Fn (3 keys): 1.0, 1.25, 1.5

So by taking part in such a group buy I would (gladly!) co-finance the rest for people with other needs. Mind you, I just want 4 of the keycaps und would be buying 31 (!) to help hit the MOQ and reach lower rates - for the benefit of all.

I wonder why the guys over there take it for granted we are willing to do that - and won't do the same.

[BimboBB]

If the modifiers came in the standard colours (beige/white & white/black), I would need the Ctrl, Alt, Windows, Menu & Capslock keys - finished. (and a Spacebar in 6.25)
As they are coming now in "funny" colours, which dont match any vintage set, its good to have at least the Tab, Enter, Shift's & Backspace included to make your board not looking completely broken. (it still looks broken on non-60% Keyboards )
FN key is the only one which is slightly unnecessary. But having in mind more and more keyboards coming with that key, it will be quite useful as well.

So in my opinion, the current groupbuy just makes sense for 60% Keyboards.

But it doesnt have much to do with ANSI or ISO, as the difference in a moogle kit would only be left shift, and in a modifier kit it would be Backspace and ISO-Enter additionally, which can be covered quite easily.

[Grond]

I'm glad this GB is happening, but on the other hand there's not much I'm interested to buy. I hoped to see moogle kits in standard colors, the ins/del/pag up/page down cluster, or a faithful rgb replica. Since none of that seems to be in the plans, I'll just be buying some ESC.

[IvanIvanovich]

One step at a time. Since we are planning on doing the full sets in white/black and black/beige we thought it would be better to offer the modifier packs and ISO/ANSI conversion sets in those colors at that time as it will make more sense to run those smaller packs in the same colors at once. We are more likely to get a much better price break on the extra keys since they would just be more of the same keys from the full sets. I hope this makes sense and more clear as to why we are not offering those colors now.
The current mod packs may be 60% centric, but with the 60% projects coming up on both GH and DT I thought it may be convenient, and of course they can add a splash of color to any larger board as well. For those that prefer the standard 2tone color arrangement we can offer a nav/numpad pack in the same colorway at a later time to complete.