Looking to try a Model F (or a switch)

[Volkovich_]

Hello everybody,
lately I've been toying with the idea of coming back to classic (or at least classic looking keyboards). I'm currently using the kaihua box white switches, which I love, but damn I love how those Kishsaver reproductions.

The only problem is that the price is too steep for me to just go for it, specially being in switzerland with the import taxes etc. So I'm just going for the extremely long shot... if it would be possible to try a model f (or at least a single switch). I'm afraid that the weighting may be too much and it will become tiring at some point. For reference, I tried also a new old stock Dell Bigfoot with linear modded black alps, and they were too heavy for me. Same goes with the Zealios V2. I tried the v1 and love them, and I still use them, but the V2 were too heavy for me, the tactile point was making the typing too tiring.

I know I'm asking for a lot here, specially because they are very expensive and because I haven't been specially active in this forum.

If someone is willing to help me... I would be forever grateful. If not... I totally understand.

I'm based in the french side of switzerland in case there are other users dans la suisse

Thanks!

[ddrfraser1]

I have never thought model f buckling springs were too heavy. If anything, there a little too light. Have you tried a model m? It’s a little lighter than that.

[Volkovich_]

Nope, that's the issue, I have tried neither of them. And I found myself favoring lighter switches like the zealio V1 and kailh box white, even the cherry mx blue, even though I ended up disliking the keyfeel

[Volkovich_]

I have never thought model f buckling springs were too heavy. If anything, there a little too light. Have you tried a model m? It’s a little lighter than that.

Nope, that's the issue, I have tried neither of them. And I found myself favoring lighter switches like the zealio V1 and kailh box white, even the cherry mx blue, even though I ended up disliking the keyfeel

[ddrfraser1]

Man, if I were you, I would save up to buy one. You can’t go wrong with a model f. Watch all chyrosran22’s videos and pick the one you like the most and go for it. Worst case, if you don’t like it there is a healthy resale market and you’ll get your money back. The cheapest one will be either the AT or XT. A model m is a great one to have in the arsenal too. I have 4 myself and 3 fs.

[Volkovich_]

Man, if I were you, I would save up to buy one. You can’t go wrong with a model f. Watch all chyrosran22’s videos and pick the one you like the most and go for it. Worst case, if you don’t like it there is a healthy resale market and you’ll get your money back. The cheapest one will be either the AT or XT. A model m is a great one to have in the arsenal too. I have 4 myself and 3 fs.

Haha I may actually get one these ones: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product ... kishsaver/ that one in industrial gray... But good point about the resale value. Also I've seen that this "replicas" are very very good, and from people from deskthority if I'm not wrong

[ddrfraser1]

Yes get one!

[Volkovich_]

aaaand I got one, let's see when it arrives now

[Weezer]

aaaand I got one, let's see when it arrives now

Great choice! Model Fs are excellent keyboards.

[Xcore]

To try it out, I bought an old used F and so far I like the typing on the alphanumeric keys; but the layout on this XT is just… not fitting into my training, I guess. And the spacebar is sooooo stiff. Both problems should not exist on the new Model F, so I'm looking forward to my own order arriving later this year, hopefully.

I usually programm on Cherry MX Browns because they are easily available. I think they are considered relatively light switches, at least lighter than MX Blues. I would say the F is between the blues and the Browns, with it being a tiny bit heavier than the Browns – but it feels better, crispy and clear.

One thing, that I don't like about the F (which I have) is the vibration of the keys. When a finger moves up, then the switch makes a buzzing vibration that travels into my finger. The Model M absolutely does not have this aspect at all. Maybe my F is especially pingy. It was refurbished by another enthusiast and I think the foam was changed. Even if this is typical for every F keyboard, i'd still prefer it to the alternatives, so far.

[TNT]

Funny enough, I only typed on keyboards with a standard layout until I got my Model F. Now the XT-Layout is my favourite and I'm almost exclusively using XT boards.

Have you tried floss modding it? Supposedly that helps a lot against the pinginess without changing keyfeel too much. Many people prefer it to "stock" cap. buckling spring switches.

[Muirium]

You… like XT layout? Are you okay?

[TNT]

[Xcore]

I actually today attempted to kitchen towel mod it, because I had no floss with a foam part. Well, kitchen towel does not work at all

But I'll try out the floss mod, once I can get my hands on the required materials.

[TNT]

So, rolled up paper towel instead of floss? Küchenrollenröllchen in die Federn?

[micmil]

Nope, that's the issue, I have tried neither of them. And I found myself favoring lighter switches like the zealio V1 and kailh box white, even the cherry mx blue, even though I ended up disliking the keyfeel

Working through the keyboard math backwards, I have BOX Jades in one of my keyboards. I'd compare the feel favorably to my New Model M. Since Whites are similar to Jades, only less clicky, I'd say if you like the Whites you'd probably dig the M just fine and since the F is a bit lighter you'd like it even more.

And now for my next trick I explain how I'm a better MMA fighter than Fedor Emelianenko.

[Xcore]

So, rolled up paper towel instead of floss? Küchenrollenröllchen in die Federn?

Yes, I cut out a very small strip of kitchen towel and folded it, so it would fit into the spring. But it didn't do anything for the ringing. Ich habe bei diesem Experiment Federn gelassen...

[Rayndalf]

So, rolled up paper towel instead of floss? Küchenrollenröllchen in die Federn?

Yes, I cut out a very small strip of kitchen towel and folded it, so it would fit into the spring. But it didn't do anything for the ringing. Ich habe bei diesem Experiment Federn gelassen...

Just install a solenoid, you won't be able to hear any pinging over the sound of it firing

[Xcore]

My neighbours would kill me probably.

[Rayndalf]

My neighbours would kill me probably.

Just think about how happy they'd be when they realized how productive you are.
Solenoids really seem like a lot of fun, I hope they make a comeback.

[an_achronism]

Funny enough, I only typed on keyboards with a standard layout until I got my Model F. Now the XT-Layout is my favourite and I'm almost exclusively using XT boards.

Have you tried floss modding it? Supposedly that helps a lot against the pinginess without changing keyfeel too much. Many people prefer it to "stock" cap. buckling spring switches.

Y'know, I would not be at all surprised if I end up loving the "XT" (really just "PC", no?) layout. Vertical Enter is fine, I'm an ISO guy. It's almost just an ISO layout, with some slightly odd offset keys in the numpad cluster. The offset 0 isn't a problem for me at all because I press the 0 on a Model M / Enhanced layout numpad with my right thumb anyway, in the corner, so I'd barely have to adjust my muscle memory to land dead centre on the PC/XT version of the key. The lack of a nav cluster isn't a huge deal since nav functions are easily reachable by just flicking num lock off for a sec and they're in the usual spots because the functionality was preserved through the Enhanced layout and beyond.

If it has a weakness from my perspective, it's the fact it only has one modifier on each side of the Space bar rather than 2, and the one on the bottom left is Alt rather than Ctrl. I use Alt Gr a lot, and although I can still do Ctrl+Alt, it's not quite as comfy/convenient. I don't buy Ctrl on the home row being optimal at all, my pinky is much comfier curling to the bottom corner rather than grabbing for left-centre (left Shift is fine because it's closer to the bottom of the board, and pinky fingers are shorter than others on hand so it naturally falls around there, but going for the far left of home row involves either moving hand or stretching a bit).

[Bjerrk]

Y'know, I would not be at all surprised if I end up loving the "XT" (really just "PC", no?) layout. Vertical Enter is fine, I'm an ISO guy. It's almost just an ISO layout, with some slightly odd offset keys in the numpad cluster. The offset 0 isn't a problem for me at all because I press the 0 on a Model M / Enhanced layout numpad with my right thumb anyway, in the corner, so I'd barely have to adjust my muscle memory to land dead centre on the PC/XT version of the key. The lack of a nav cluster isn't a huge deal since nav functions are easily reachable by just flicking num lock off for a sec and they're in the usual spots because the functionality was preserved through the Enhanced layout and beyond.

If it has a weakness from my perspective, it's the fact it only has one modifier on each side of the Space bar rather than 2, and the one on the bottom left is Alt rather than Ctrl. I use Alt Gr a lot, and although I can still do Ctrl+Alt, it's not quite as comfy/convenient. I don't buy Ctrl on the home row being optimal at all, my pinky is much comfier curling to the bottom corner rather than grabbing for left-centre (left Shift is fine because it's closer to the bottom of the board, and pinky fingers are shorter than others on hand so it naturally falls around there, but going for the far left of home row involves either moving hand or stretching a bit).

Completely agree - in fact, the lack of arrow keys is, in general, not much of a problem, IMO.
I'd sometimes wish that "AKL" (Arrowkeyless) had become a thing instead of TKL (Tenkeyless), since having the arrow keys on the numpad is, in my opinion, quite a bit more comfortable. It's nice (ærgønømicålly) to have the arrows on the same level as the home row, rather than on the bottom row.

But the sparsity of modifier keys is a bit of a bummer. Especially if you use e.g. an ISO-NORDIC layout, as I do. In that case, LALT (=Alt) and RALT (=Alt Gr) behave completely differently and are both completely indispensable. Not that this is unique to ISO-NORDIC, but it is especially bad.

What I often end up doing is mapping some other key to RALT. Often actually the 0 on the numpad (at least when not used for number entry).

[Wazrach]

I really don't mind using the XT layout at all - the strange stepped modifier keys are not really a hindrance to me and the keys I need are still there and accessible. I can pretty much use any layout just fine. Ironically the most painful layout for me is a 60% layout, where I need to use function layers. I can still use and enjoy a 60% keyboard though.

As there are slight variations between different units of the same keyboard, some of the XT boards have uncomfortably heavy spacebars while some are lighter. Whatever the case, the spacebar lightening trick works well and you can take this opportunity to dab some grease onto the wire to make the spacebar sound a lot better.

[TNT]

...

Completely agree - in fact, the lack of arrow keys is, in general, not much of a problem, IMO.
I'd sometimes wish that "AKL" (Arrowkeyless) had become a thing instead of TKL (Tenkeyless), since having the arrow keys on the numpad is, in my opinion, quite a bit more comfortable. It's nice (ærgønømicålly) to have the arrows on the same level as the home row, rather than on the bottom row.

But the sparsity of modifier keys is a bit of a bummer. Especially if you use e.g. an ISO-NORDIC layout, as I do. In that case, LALT (=Alt) and RALT (=Alt Gr) behave completely differently and are both completely indispensable. Not that this is unique to ISO-NORDIC, but it is especially bad.

What I often end up doing is mapping some other key to RALT. Often actually the 0 on the numpad (at least when not used for number entry).

Yeah, I have a habit of not using right shift or right modifiers at all, so at the beginning, I always mapped RAlt to that rshift. At some point, I got used to just using Ctrl + Alt, so it's fine for me now. I have no experience with ISO-Nordic, but I can imagine that it's kind of a hassle without a dedicated key when you frequently have to use AltGr.

But the function cluster is actually one of the reasons I like XT/AT so much. Everything is more condensed or compact compared to modern layout. That includes the Escape key instead of Tilde. I usually exchange those two on AT boards I use. I got used to Ctrl being on the home row relatively fast. My left pinky normally rests on lshift, so no change on that, and on a normal layout space is kinda wasted with capslock being in the left cluster imo. I use it very seldomly if not at all and it's kinda annoying when you randomly activate it, so I think it's a good thing that it is out of the way. Depending on how much you do use it, why not use XT/AT capslock for RAlt and still have capslock via a macro? I totally agree with what you said on the arrow-keys tho.

But on that note I can adapt very fast in between layouts when I'm switching boards, so it's not that big of a deal to me after all. The best mix of both worlds for me is the Omnikey plus.

[Bjerrk]

Yeah, I have a habit of not using right shift or right modifiers at all, so at the beginning, I always mapped RAlt to that rshift. At some point, I got used to just using Ctrl + Alt, so it's fine for me now. I have no experience with ISO-Nordic, but I can imagine that it's kind of a hassle without a dedicated key when you frequently have to use AltGr.

It's not even that. In e.g. ISO-NORDIC, AltGr+2 produces @, but Ctrl+Alt+2 produces bugger all. AltGr is just it's own indispensable part of the layout

[Bjerrk]

my left pinky normally rests on lshift, so no change on that, and on a normal layout space is kinda wasted with capslock being in the left cluster imo. I use it very seldomly if not at all and it's kinda annoying when you randomly activate it, so I think it's a good thing that it is out of the way. Depending on how much you do use it, why not use XT/AT capslock for RAlt and still have capslock via a macro? I totally agree with what you said on the arrow-keys tho.

Completely agree - caps lock is more often an annoyance than it is useful. I always bind it to a momentary later switch (Fn) key, so in that sense it becomes useful again. I don't even have "actual caps lock" available via a layer, as I simply never use it.

[an_achronism]

My Caps Lock has been Super key ever since I started fiddling with boards that didn't have dedicated Windows keys because I do actually use shortcuts like Win+E, Win+R, Win+S, Win+arrows and so on quite a lot but almost never use Caps Lock (even on boards that have a Windows key I still have it remapped to discourage building muscle memory for frequently hitting a key that sometimes isn't there). I just map Shift + Super to Caps Lock then have a conditional set to disable it again with a single press of Caps Lock if it's on at the time. But aye, most of the shortcuts with Win are on keys very close to that home row Caps Lock / Ctrl position (or nowhere near so need 2 hands regardless) so I end up moving my hand left and using index finger. The same is not necessarily true of all Ctrl shortcuts I use, so I'd be more inclined to want to use my pinky, which is less comfy for me than just curling it slightly and going for the bottom left corner. It would also be a bit of a pain in the hole during games, since Ctrl is used heavily and would be in a somewhat unfamiliar position (to me). So aye, that's probably the main downside to the original IBM PC layout for me personally.

The other minor bonus to mapping Caps Lock as Super is that I have a Pixelbook that I rarely use but on that, the key in that spot is a kinda sorta Super key: it triggers search, sort of like a single press of the Windows key opens Start with the cursor in the search box on Windows 10. Although frankly if I'm on the Chromebook it's almost always because I'm in Linux, where I can map it however I feel like...