@moderators - please relocate (some) thread/s to the correct (vendor) section in DT.

idollar · 02 Jan 2025, 11:15

Hello,

I have changed the title of the thread as it not only affects the referenced thread but some others also.

Following examples of vendors selling:

Also the post who lead to the title change here: viewtopic.php?p=522008#p522008

Regards

--------------------------------------------------------------------- the original post follows -------------------------------------

Hello,

You may have realised that "Model F Labs" is a LLC company:

: Screenshot at 2024-12-29 10-15-09.png (151.55 KiB) Viewed 21624 times

The thread https://www.deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11046 is related to the sales of that company.
You can find the terms for sale which clearly reflect that this is actually a company https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/terms-and-conditions/

Spoiler:

Could you please move the thread to the correct location ?

Thanks in advance

i$

Ellipse · 02 Jan 2025, 22:18

It is not against Deskthority policy to be an organized company and post a group buy. I have reviewed the terms and conditions.

It is clear that you are looking to "clear the playing field" and hide the topic of your competition for a product that you are offering. I can see that virtually no one visits or posts in this vendor section, compared to the far more popular group buy section. Any move would result in undue hardship for a competitor for your non-profit project, whether it is operated as a sole proprietorship or in the form of another entity.

Group buys can be run by any legal organization or individual. Anyone dealing with receiving funds and paying suppliers must be able to deal with tax and other implications which are beyond the scope of discussion on this forum, and a company is one appropriate means of separating personal and business activities.

The spirit of a group buy is that the community has input on the project, then funds are collected and sent to a manufacturer, and then the goods are delivered, with the factory making extras to offer newcomers the opportunity to buy from ready-made stock. This is exactly how various group buys are run, including ones that I have coordinated. There is definitely a trend of group buys becoming more professional and not just run by individuals, so community members are aware that groups of individuals may form a corporation so that they legally share ownership of a bank account and ownership of molds, for example, so one group buy coordinator cannot run away with funds.

As you pursue your projects, you will realize that someone has to make the wire transfer to pay these factories, and the person or entity that pays the factory is the owner. You can't say Deskthority members own the project as it is false, unless you register a non-profit corporation listing certain forum members as owners or a board of advisers, but then you will equally be registered as a company and under your incorrect understanding of the Deskthority terms and conditions, yours would not be a group buy (which is as I mentioned incorrect - your group buy is just as acceptable and welcome in this forum category as others).

All community members are welcome on Deskthority without regard to moral judgments of their contributions and without being subject to repeated attacks. Everyone please review the terms of use to make sure that your posts are not in violation of the Deskthority terms of service, a portion of which is copied below. Hateful, obscene, and abusive content is not tolerated within this community, and postings may be removed or moved at the discretion of the moderation team.

"You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where “deskthority” is hosted or International Law. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned, with notification of your Internet Service Provider if deemed required by us. The IP address of all posts are recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that “deskthority” have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit."

idollar · 02 Jan 2025, 23:52

@Model F Labs LLC employee, your argument above is wrong

In your short

text it seems that the reason behind the request to the moderators has to do with commertial interest. This is absolutely wrong. To be 100% clear:

I do not plan to create any (keyboard related) company
I will invest in the project my own resources (money). I would be happy to recover my personal expenditure but I expect no profit.
My sole intention from the FSF project is to create a free source of information allowing anyone to run their projects, whatever the nature of these be.
I have named this a DT project but it is actually an open-to-anyone project as the ultimate goal is the information and the knowledge

And I put the above in writing for anyone to quote it if I do not keep my word. The GB is updated with the text also.

This is why I could only smile after reading

It is clear that you are looking to "clear the playing field" and hide the topic of your competition for a product that you are offering.

It takes one to know one.

BTW: I start feeling harassed.

@moderators: Why the reported thread is a Sale organised by a LLC (vendor) instead of a Group Buy ?

1. Purpose and Nature of the Transaction:

Group Buy: This is a collective purchase organized by a group of individuals, often facilitated by a community or an informal entity. The primary goal is to gather a certain quantity of orders to unlock better pricing or access to a product that may otherwise be unavailable. It’s based on a cooperative approach, where the risks and rewards are shared among the participants.

LLC Selling Custom-Made Products: In contrast, an LLC (Limited Liability Company) selling custom-made products is a business entity with a clear profit-driven motive. The products are created specifically for customers, often on demand. The LLC is responsible for the entire process, from production to sales. In the reported case, the money is collected by a Model F Labs LLC based on commercial terms and conditions. This is the definition of a vendor sale.

2. Organization and Responsibility:

Group Buy: In a group buy, the role of the organizer is mainly to coordinate, collect orders, and ensure that the minimum quantity for a discount is met. However, there is typically little to no accountability if issues arise, as the process is informal and relies heavily on the community's trust.

LLC Selling Custom-Made Products: An LLC is a legally bound entity with clear responsibilities and obligations to its customers. When purchasing from an LLC, buyers are engaging in a formal transaction with legal protections in place. The LLC is responsible for product quality, customer service, and adherence to any warranties or guarantees. If something goes wrong, the LLC is accountable and often bound by consumer protection laws.

3. Pricing and Profit Motive:

Group Buy: The pricing in a group buy is typically lower becausI encourage you to send any reference to any "abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country," which I have posted.e it relies on bulk ordering, and the main aim is to provide participants with discounted prices. There is no direct profit being made by the organizer (other than potentially covering small organizational costs). The emphasis is on collective purchasing power and often involves products sourced from manufacturers or suppliers at a reduced cost.

LLC Selling Custom-Made Products: An LLC selling custom-made products, on the other hand, is operating with a clear profit motive. Prices for custom products reflect the costs of production, material sourcing, labor, and overhead. The LLC is directly profiting from each sale.

4. Long-Term Viability:

Group Buy: Group buys are often short-term initiatives, designed around a specific product or deal. Once the target number of purchases is reached, the transaction is completed, and the process generally ends. There is no guarantee of continuity or future offerings unless the group organizer chooses to arrange another buy.

LLC Selling Custom-Made Products: An LLC selling custom products is built to be a long-term business. They have ongoing responsibilities to customers, such as product support, marketing, and customer retention. This model allows for repeat business and sustainable growth as the company continues to evolve and offer new or improved products.

PD: I encourage Model F Labs to report any reference to any "abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country," which I have posted.

wobbled · 03 Jan 2025, 00:54

Ellipse’s did start as a group buy but it’s obvious that its now a business and he has become a keyboard vendor. There’s no sign of this ‘group buy’ ever ending, despite the ‘have your orders in by x’ bullshit.

I think its only fair to move the Model F repro thread to its appropriate vendor section.

Ellipse this won’t really affect anything lol, most people use the forum spy to browse anyway. It makes sense to move your thread to the appropriate section though, it is no longer a group buy.

idollar · 03 Jan 2025, 01:18

The first post in the reported thread is dated: 01 Jul 2015, 05:59
I guess that Model F Labs hired

the DT member in 06 June 2016 when the LLC was registed

It is factual: it is not a GB from June 2016

idollar · 03 Jan 2025, 01:30

@moderators

Ellipse wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 03:58 Major project milestone:

Today the project passed $3 million in orders! It is great to know there has been so much interest in the old beam spring and Model F keyboards.

For those who have ordered in stock items recently, please note that I am still moving through the backlog but the backlog has grown significantly in recent weeks due to much higher order volume of in stock items. Currently I am working on wrapping up the remaining small project orders (split ergo F15, ortho, and F50) and other orders.

Additional to the above indications, one may consider that Model F Labs LLC announced $3 million in orders.
This is not the amount that one could expect for GB of keyboards ... this may be the volume for a caterpillars GB but not for regular consumer products

Ellipse · 03 Jan 2025, 02:24

Thank you for offering your opinion on Group Buys. Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. I have read your description and can confirm that a group buy is in line with the project, so there is no need to unfairly hide threads in order to have an unfair advantage.

In summary of my points below, a simple google search about mechanical keyboard companies organizing group buys (sadly, many discussions are about individuals and companies being reported as possible scammers) 100% disproves your opinion that group buys may not be run by companies for profit (or sadly, sometimes for nefarious activities, which has done great harm to the keyboard community in my opinion).

You seem to refer to the early definition of a group buy from 10 years ago when the concept was new. Many things have changed since then and group buys are now much different and are often organized by companies.

Once more, group buy organizers are not limited to individuals and they have often generated profits in order to fund additional quantity from factories and to fund additional group buys, and to distribute profits to themselves as compensation for their time and efforts.

"Group Buy: This is a collective purchase organized by a group of individuals, often facilitated by a community or an informal entity. The primary goal is to gather a certain quantity of orders to unlock better pricing or access to a product that may otherwise be unavailable. It’s based on a cooperative approach, where the risks and rewards are shared among the participants."

I am an individual coordinating with factories and with the community to get better pricing and unlock access to a product that was otherwise unavailable (new Model F with USB controller). Registering as a business for organizational purposes does not change this. Your project is no different - you are an individual looking to order molds and get better pricing. You are doing the same thing as I am, in this respect.

"Group Buy: In a group buy, the role of the organizer is mainly to coordinate, collect orders, and ensure that the minimum quantity for a discount is met. However, there is typically little to no accountability if issues arise, as the process is informal and relies heavily on the community's trust."

Not accurate, many group buys organized by both individuals and companies have been held accountable for not fulfilling orders, and some disappeared with the funds without fulfilling orders. You can google "mechanical keyboard group buy companies scams" and see various postings about companies organizing group buys, thus disproving your opinion.

Your own project disproves your own concept of a group buy, as you have designed parts and are planning on purchasing molds, which "most" group buys do not do. Individuals are also responsible for fulfilling their obligations if they accept money to purchase something.

Many group buys are of established products. Neither product of ours was established beforehand. Therefore under your definition, you should also be in the vendor section (though I disagree with your assessment and expect threads not to move around and confuse the many visitors to this forum who have not registered and are not notified of new postings).

"Group Buy: Group buys are often short-term initiatives, designed around a specific product or deal. Once the target number of purchases is reached, the transaction is completed, and the process generally ends. There is no guarantee of continuity or future offerings unless the group organizer chooses to arrange another buy."

Again, you are attempting to state your opinions as facts. You even admit that by using the word "often" instead of the word "always." This project has definitely stretched the nature of group buys and has been a part of the trend of the changes in group buys.

By using the word often you acknowledge that there are exceptions and unique situations for every guideline, so you have no authority to say that a group buy cannot be organized into a non-profit or other entity for any other reason, that a group buy does not have a time limit, and that group buys are not only limited to charitable initiatives.

I recall that you created a group buy for FSSK PCBs with the expressed note that you would be seeking compensation for your time (seeking a profit, in other words). This is a proven point and goes against your current arguments about group buys and profits.

Once more, it seems that you are only attacking one person and one project, the only project in competition with your own product offering. You are not posting about reorganizing any other threads, so it is clear that you are targeting your attacks.

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wobbled · 03 Jan 2025, 03:45

Ellipse to really dumb things down for you since apparently this is needed.

You began as a group buy when multiple people put in money so you could hit MOQ in chinese factories to bring the cost down, and no doubt to assist with the cost of research and development.

That is now over. You formed a business out of this, and have an indefinite supply with no end in sight (contrary to your please have your orders in by x bullshit)

You are by definition a vendor selling keyboards from your web store. Your thread needs to be moved.

idollar · 03 Jan 2025, 09:28

@Moderators

In continuation of the discussion regarding the distinction between a group buy (GB) and a sale through an LLC, I believe it is important to further clarify these differences, particularly in terms of transparency and community-driven initiatives.

A group buy, by definition, is rooted in transparency and the availability of information in advance. As demonstrated in the example shared earlier by Model F Labs LLC, the source files and information needed for the group buy were openly made available here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10744.

: FSSK gerber.png (8.03 KiB) Viewed 21291 times

The core purpose of a group buy is to allow members of a community to collectively access goods that they would otherwise need to purchase individually and at a higher cost. The model is based on collaboration and collective purchasing power, and as such, the name "Group Buy" is reflective of the following principles:

Group = Collective action and effort from multiple individuals
Buy = A collective purchase of goods, typically at a better price point due to bulk purchasing

In contrast, when a vendor offers a product individually, as is the case with an LLC sale, there is no group collaboration. Each individual acts independently, and the procurement is conducted through a formal business entity (LLC). This structure is fundamentally different from a group buy because it focuses on individual transactions rather than communal effort.

Moreover, one of the key advantages of the group buy model is its ability to foster innovation and evolution in product design. Because the process is inherently collaborative, information and resources are often shared freely, which leads to continuous improvements. This “sharing attitude” is fundamental to the spirit of the community, and it drives the development of better and more refined products. A prime example of this evolution can be seen in the Enhanced FSSK PCB, which was made possible through open collaboration and the free exchange of knowledge.

Unfortunately, it seems that the focus of Model F Labs LLC may be more centered on profit generation rather than fostering innovation or community growth. While profit in itself is not inherently wrong, it is important to recognize the difference in how the information and resources related to the products are shared. In the case of a group buy, information is made public for the benefit of the wider community, whereas in the case of an LLC sale, much of this information is kept private. This lack of transparency is problematic, especially when key details are withheld to prevent competition from arising, effectively stifling innovation and limiting the potential for community-driven improvements.

The demonstration of the above comes from facts again: to my question to share information on the wrongly named GB under discussion:

Elipse: (Give and take) why don't you please share the information you hold (CAD, springs specs/source and how to purchase from China) with the community to help in producing the flippers in the same way the community has done with the critical components you have (and still are) using in your products ?

The answer was (I have rephrased the message to avoid censorship

) "Idon´t want to fulfill it and would appreciate no further contact on this matter.". Both parts of the answer are against fostering innovation and community growth.

Therefore, my concern is not necessarily with the profit-driven nature of the LLC model, but with the withholding of critical information that could benefit the community and promote healthy competition. In an ideal scenario, information would be shared openly, allowing both consumers and creators to thrive in an environment of mutual growth and advancement. This would ensure that all participants have access to the necessary resources to contribute and improve upon existing designs, much like what has been achieved through group buys in the past.

The issue of sharing information lies at the very core of the forum's purpose. The answers to this question will ultimately define the future direction of Deskthority. Do we aspire to be a community dedicated to the open exchange of knowledge, or will we become a platform primarily focused on sales?

It is crucial to distinguish between a vendor, whose primary objective is profit, and a forum member, whose focus is on sharing information and enriching the collective knowledge of the community.

Fortunately, there is space for both on Deskthority: businesses, operating with a profit-oriented approach, should be directed to the section specifically reserved for vendors, while individuals dedicated to information sharing should continue to engage where knowledge is exchanged.

---------------------------------------------
PD: @Model F Labs LLC

Once again your argumentation is wrong.

Ellipse wrote: 03 Jan 2025, 02:24 Once more, it seems that you are only attacking one person and one project, the only project in competition with your own product offering. You are not posting about reorganizing any other threads, so it is clear that you are targeting your attacks.

The statements made above are not intended to be personal in any way. My observations are based solely on the fact that I could not identify any other business claiming to conduct a Group Buy in a similar manner. I believe your suggestion of filtering Group Buys to identify those that may not be genuine is a valuable one. This can be addressed once this particular case is resolved, or even concurrently, as I have no strong preference.

It takes one to know one

Thank you for your time and attention.

Best regards,

Ellipse · 04 Jan 2025, 06:05

Again, you are stating your opinions about group buys as facts. Please respect that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and that you cannot use your opinion to create new facts about what is a group buy.

Everyone is allowed to debate what is the best format for group buys but trying to force your competition to a forum area with no views and only 15 postings in total in the past 365 days reeks of trying to remove the competition in favor of your own project. Folks may head to the group buy section and look for "Model F" in the title and confuse someone's new project for their competitor's project, which would only serve to unjustly benefit the new project at the cost of the old project.

Every group buy organizer has the right to run their buy as they see fit; there are no central Deskthority group buy rules that are imposed on each group buy that require every group buy being open source, not for profit, run only by a maximum of one person, without any legally permitted organizational entities. You cannot set the rules for all group buys any more than I can.

It is absolutely wrong that group buys require sharing of unfiltered information. In fact, I would argue that many mechanical keyboard-related group buys are the opposite of your opinion: many group buys are for discounted keycap sets from large keycap manufacturers, and they do not force anyone to disclose the computer files as a normal part of most of these buys. If an audiophile community member is organizing a group buy of Sennheiser headphones at a $15 discount for their members, your opinion that Sennheiser would have to share their computer files and trade secrets is ridiculous and wrong. Why would a large manufacturer give away their manufacturing files to a group buy organizer looking to get a discount on ordering 100 MX dye sublimated key sets, for example.

By this logic (again, an opinion that I disagree with) I would suggest that your project is not a group buy either, because you are not working with a manufacturer of an existing product with existing tooling and molds to achieve a discount.

What is a person who plans to sell Model FSSK v.1.0 items that they are buying from a factory considered? Some may call that person a Vendor, though I disagree. A vendor is defined as "a person or company offering something for sale, especially a trader in the street." Note, the dictionary considers that a Vendor may be a person. They do not have to be a company.

You are, in fact, creating new products and selling them, and it is irrelevant whether or not it is for a profit. You are still selling a product and receiving funds for the product, same thing as what a Vendor does by the dictionary definition. Your product and mine could also be considered more accurately "crowdfunded" projects, which often overlap with group buys in many respects.

Your Model F project is, in fact, an open-source, non-profit crowdfunding project where you are looking for assistance from factories for manufacturing advice and looking for donation funds from forum members to fund molds. That is in no way a group buy according to the usual group buy, but it is often what I see on crowdfunding sites like Kickstarter.

Deskthority is a welcoming community and is generally not restrictive on such pedantic matters as the qualifications for a group buy. Instead of creating a new forum category for crowdfunded / group buy hybrid projects such as both of ours, let's not let our opinions be mistaken for facts.

idollar · 04 Jan 2025, 09:24

@Model F Labs LLC,

You keep stating that I am expressing opinions instead of facts. You said that:

In fact, I would argue that many mechanical keyboard-related group buys are the opposite of your opinion: many group buys are for discounted keycap sets from large keycap manufacturers, and they do not force anyone to disclose the computer files as a normal part of most of these buys.

You also said:

IIf an audiophile community member is organizing a group buy of Sennheiser headphones at a $15 discount for their members, your opinion that Sennheiser would have to share their computer files and trade secrets is ridiculous and wrong. Why would a large manufacturer give away their manufacturing files to a group buy organizer looking to get a discount on ordering 100 MX dye sublimated key sets, for example.

If the action is organised by Seennheiser itself, it would be a sales discount on certain conditions (forum member in this case).
If the action is organised by the community it would be an attempt to get discount based in economies of scale. If you read the text in the posts above you can find this case. But it seems that you are not reading.

Let me provide you samples of GBs:

Following examples of vendors selling:

There may be some mistakes above. I do not intend to perform myself the audit which you suggested.

@moderators

This discussion, in my opinion, is important. The influence of trademarks on DT is, in my view, too large. The fact that information is not being shared will lead to the forum’s disappearance. People will log in to buy from companies. Perhaps to get support. But the ultimate purpose of forums dedicated to a topic is to share information.

That’s why there are sections dedicated to "vendors." So they don’t interfere with the selfless exchange of information. Their legitimate goal of generating profit may not align with the forum’s objectives.

When this goal spreads throughout the rest of the forum, as is the case with Model M Labs LLC, it becomes a problem. For example, the fact that they do not provide the legally required warranty or that their products sold in the EU lack the CE marking guaranteeing their quality is a problem for the forum. People who visit see that DT has become a place where companies with values very different from the concept of sharing are given free rein.

I mentioned the case of Model M Labs LLC because it's the one I know, but it’s nothing personal. If there are other similar cases, they should be reported.

The future of the forum is at stake. The big question is whether we want companies to continue transforming it into a sales platform, or if we want it to remain a place for the exchange of information and knowledge. Companies, as the representative of Model F Labs rightly says, have no interest in sharing information and knowledge.

That’s why I propose that all activities related to marketing and company support be moved back to where they belong: the "vendors" section.

I’m not proposing to remove companies. If they contribute to global knowledge, they could and should participate in the forum. But if their sole purpose is to sell, they should advertise and pay for it. If their purpose is to have a support platform, it should be reflected in their expense accounts.

In any case, it is important that all of them adhere to the current laws. I am not sure that all of them do. As I have already mentioned, in the specific case I have used to open this discussion, the keyboards imported into the EU do not have the legally required CE certification, and I doubt that the warranty they offer is legally mandated.

davkol · 04 Jan 2025, 13:15

I'd like to remind people of the discussion about distributing the original ErgoDox through a community group buy, or newly founded Massdrop—back in 2012—and the following developments, including Massdrop getting the Ping Award.

webwit wrote: 08 Nov 2012, 01:58 I vote group buy because massdrop is fashionable but in the end 3rd party for profit and not community.

Sounds familiar?

webwit · 04 Jan 2025, 21:32

Massdrop was different because they are a 3rd party. This fight is way over the top - Ellipse is a single person small business who works hard, he is not a big company like IBM in its former glory. It's like attacking your local bakery as if it were an evil big corp. And if you disagree, there's a difference between stating your opinion, or yelling it at everone's face a hundred times "for the community". That's just spam and harassment. Some people seriously need to get laid. At least pick a bigger nemesis in your single lifetime.

wobbled · 04 Jan 2025, 21:43

webwit wrote: 04 Jan 2025, 21:32 Massdrop was different because they are a 3rd party. This fight is way over the top - Ellipse is a single person small business who works hard, he is not a big company like IBM in its former glory. It's like attacking your local bakery as if it were an evil big corp. And if you disagree, there's a difference between stating your opinion, or yelling it at everone's face a hundred times "for the community". That's just spam and harassment. Some people seriously need to get laid. At least pick a bigger nemesis in your single lifetime.

Why are you even still around after selling out? You are solely responsible for this place going to hell by being a greedy prick, just like your mate Ellipse. Kindly do one, permanently.

idollar · 04 Jan 2025, 21:49

webwit wrote: 04 Jan 2025, 21:32 Massdrop was different because they are a 3rd party. This fight is way over the top - Ellipse is a single person small business who works hard, he is not a big company like IBM in its former glory. It's like attacking your local bakery as if it were an evil big corp. And if you disagree, there's a difference between stating your opinion, or yelling it at everone's face a hundred times "for the community". That's just spam and harassment. Some people seriously need to get laid. At least pick a bigger nemesis in your single lifetime.

Hello webwit,

I really appreciate your opinion, thank you.

The issue perhaps began as a result of my question about knowledge management and how to share it on DT. The particular case is that of Model M Labs LLC. The negative response is based on the fact that it is a company that does not wish to share its knowledge. I find that reasonable, but in that case, it should be treated as a company. That’s why this thread exists:

Company = (probably) does not share knowledge = does not act as an individual = should be in the "vendors" group
Company = legal contract = warranty + regulations

The fact that the initial case involves Model F Labs LLC is circumstantial.
The question is generic. I may need to change the title of this thread.

idollar wrote: 04 Jan 2025, 09:24
The future of the forum is at stake. The big question is whether we want companies to continue transforming it into a sales platform, or if we want it to remain a place for the exchange of information and knowledge. Companies, as the representative of Model F Labs rightly says, have no interest in sharing information and knowledge.

That’s why I propose that all activities related to marketing and company support be moved back to where they belong: the "vendors" section.

idollar · 04 Jan 2025, 22:08

Hello again,

Done ... I have updated the initial post to indicate that the request to move the marketing / support threads into the "vendors" section, affects various cases.

Ellipse · 05 Jan 2025, 01:22

Another idea for our moderation team is simply to merge the almost-nonexistent Vendors section into the group buys section and remove the External section, which includes only 15 posts from Vendors in the past 365 days, 2 posts on this eBay thread in all of history, 0 posts in Taobao, and exactly 1 topic in other external, which could certainly be moved to another category.

All these kinds of projects have evolved and blurred the lines such that separation is not possible. Again, the OP is repeating opinions about group buys that are often completely opposed to what actual group buys are. Group buys are simply not required to have open source sharing of information, no matter how many times the point is demanded that people accept an opinion as fact. A group buy is often (my opinion, from what I have seen, not a fact) just a group of people banding together to purchase an established product from a company at a discount.

It's my opinion that the OP has created a "crowdsourced" open source project, not a traditional group buy as would normally be understood by folks participating in one of the many key set group buys, one of the most common group buys for mechanical keyboard communities. There is no separate category for such projects, so I have no problem with a loose definition of Group Buys for our terrific mechanical keyboard community here.

The OP is trying to turn the group buy idea into a category that is so narrow that only their specific project and a few specific other projects would fit into the category, and thus kick everyone else out of "their" forum area.

idollar · 05 Jan 2025, 05:05

I honestly don’t understand (or maybe I just don’t

) why Model F Labs LLC keeps bringing up other projects and competition when the real issue here is simple.

Just to be clear again: I haven’t created any “crowdsourced” project, and I’m not asking for a single cent. I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again: I’m willing to put my own money into this without any profit. I’m not trying to build a company or make money off keyboards.

For reference, check out my original post in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=29410, where I stated:

The purpose of this post is to start the process of creating a free model f keyboard. Free as the FSF understands freedom. Users have the freedom to run, edit, contribute to, and share the software (and in this case the hardware). Thus, free software (and hardware) is a matter of liberty, not price. Free to use and modify, with the only condition that any improvement or evolution shall be made available to the community also.

To be 100% clear:

I do not plan to create any company (at least keyboard related)

I do not plan to raise any profit from the project

The only goal behind the FSF project is to create a free source of information allowing anyone to run their projects, whatever the nature of these be.

I have named this a DT project but it is actually an open-to-anyone project as the ultimate goal is the information and the knowledge

Despite all of that, Model F Labs LLC keeps going back to attacking my project instead of talking about the actual issue. Instead of defending their position with real arguments, they keep trying to distract from the core point — which is that DT, like any other forum, is supposed to be about sharing knowledge.

If a forum starts focusing more on selling products than on sharing information, it’s only a matter of time before it loses its purpose and dies. Knowledge sharing is what keeps a community alive. If we let commercial interests dominate, it’ll ruin the community’s integrity.

Let me also make it clear: I’m not against vendors offering products, as long as they’re in the Vendors section. Group buys are about mutual benefit — it’s about coming together as a community to pool resources and get a deal, sharing the benefits. Sales, however, are all about companies making a profit without sharing that with the community. The key difference is obvious, and as long as vendors are selling in the right section, there’s no issue. The problem comes when companies use the group buy section to sell their products and distract from the original purpose.

thank you

idollar · 13 Jan 2025, 09:47

Hello,

I have not seen any answer to this from the moderators.
Any progress ?

Regards

i$

idollar · 21 Jan 2025, 11:35

Hello,

I wonder if there is any discussion about this topic which is not shared.
I have not received any answer.

Regards

i$

wobbled · 21 Jan 2025, 13:54

There’s always some that seem to be above the rules. Not sure why the mods haven't even addressed this though, model f labs hasn’t been a group buy for years, he only wants to keep it in that section so his thread can be found more easily.

Finding his thread isn't an issue for anyone though, its always on the spy cos he never shuts up.