What costs in Topres? I don't get it.

[codehead]

EliteKeyboards sell HHKB2 Pro for $300. I don't understand the price. I read wikis and stuff and found really nothing that would justify the price. I think Filcos have quite a bit of air in their prices but Topres seem just absurd to me.

[Peter]

Sorry, I can't tell you why they have the grotesque pricing they have .
But I don't disagree with you, it makes absolutely no sense ....

[harrison]

Between the lower production numbers, the higher quality control, and PBT/Dyesub process... it's a premium product at a premium price.

That being said... I doubt that it's actually physically worth a penny more than $200, but there's enough people between us and RealForce that need to pay bills, and margins on a premium product are going to be just slightly larger too.

[codehead]

Doesn't Unicomp still use dye sublimation and PBT caps? Their prices are right to say the least.

[longweight]

It isn't intrinsically worth $300 but it is to those who buy it, the price offers exclusivity. I do think that it is the best board you can buy, haven't tried the type s yet though so that might be better!

It's worth every penny to me.

[codehead]

Ok, at least us few seem to agree that there's nothing inside that justifies the price. But you say it's worth it, what makes it the best for you? I'm honestly not trolling or acting like a bitch here, I am curious... Because I've occasionally tried some RealForce boards and I actually can't stand the rubber dome "tactility" of it... Like "wow" they put a spring inside it, you know...

[Jim66]

I like variable topre but I don't like any other variety. No other manufacturer makes a variable board, that gives them a unique selling point. Similarly, HHKB has the form factor and it's a very nice layout.

The question is: does the quality of the rubber dome and that little spring make them feel significantly better than a regular rubber dome? Do they crap out and get mushy/stiff over time like regular rubber domes?

Yeah... These are contentious issue within the community; as you might expect given how much they cost.

[codehead]

Yup. The usage of different weights at different places does seem great (I can only say that about the idea) and it also seems that the layout is generally thought to be the best compact, excelling Noppoos and Pokers and Siigs.

And like you said, that's the thing that bothers me.. That's why I started this thread. Is there something I'm missing? Is this the one - despite the rubber? Because you get this thing sold as a luxury, premium, top-notch quality item but at the end of the day it's not that much you're getting. Sorta like this Optimus Maximus beast. You pay a fortune of it but when typing matters, essentially what you get is Cherry ML switches :/

[webwit]

The Topres feel significantly better than any other rubber dome keyboard, because the dome has only one job: providing tactile feeling. Other rubber domes have two jobs: provide tactile feeling, take care of contact when bottoming out. This has all kinds of implications. These domes are made for bottoming out.

[codehead]

I still disagree on the great tactile feeling of it. Maybe I'll give another go at a RealForce board and see how it goes. If it would feel awesome compared to BS or Cherries, I might be willing to pay the price but it would really have to feel close to being perfect, whatever that is...

Anyone claiming Topres over Buckling Springs, ALPS and Cherries? No flaming, please

[webwit]

I like most tactile mechanical switches better because they have sharper tactile points, which a rubber dome keyboard cannot provide. However, the Topres make less sound and the travel is buttery smooth, unlike some mechanical switches.

[mintberryminuscrunch]

Price doesn't only reflect quality etc.. It has mainly to do with production volume etc.

[codehead]

Unicomps are built to order, in US. $79.

[MagicMeatball]

Anyone claiming Topres over Buckling Springs, ALPS and Cherries? No flaming, please

There will never be a clear winner, as it's all based on personal preference. I do prefer Topre over any switch type, simply because I personally enjoy the typing experience. It's got a really solid feel, and just enough of a bump at the right pressure. My next topre will be a Type-S.

From what I hear, though, Realforce boards are pretty good because they are plate mounted. But I prefer small form factor boards, so for me the only choice was an HHKB.

[Charlie_Brown_MX]

Unicomps are built to order, in US. $79.

Are you sure? I know they *can* be built to order, but I don’t think the majority are…

More generally on the topic at hand: the cost of something can be determined by a huge number of variables, both real and psychological. *Perceived* value is a large part of that, and might partially explain why a Topre keyboard is worth $300+ to some people, in the same way it explains why I’ll pay £2 for a Tombow Mono 100 when most people won’t pay a quarter of that for a pencil.

[longweight]

Unicomps are built to order, in US. $79.

Are you sure? I know they *can* be built to order, but I don’t think the majority are…

More generally on the topic at hand: the cost of something can be determined by a huge number of variables, both real and psychological. *Perceived* value is a large part of that, and might partially explain why a Topre keyboard is worth $300+ to some people, in the same way it explains why I’ll pay £2 for a Tombow Mono 100 when most people won’t pay a quarter of that for a pencil.

All value is perceived by consumers, I wanted a Mont Blanc pen and paid $750 for it, worth every penny to me just as the HHKB2 was.

[Djuzuh]

Unicomps are built to order, in US. $79.

Are you sure? I know they *can* be built to order, but I don’t think the majority are…

More generally on the topic at hand: the cost of something can be determined by a huge number of variables, both real and psychological. *Perceived* value is a large part of that, and might partially explain why a Topre keyboard is worth $300+ to some people, in the same way it explains why I’ll pay £2 for a Tombow Mono 100 when most people won’t pay a quarter of that for a pencil.

All value is perceived by consumers, I wanted a Mont Blanc pen and paid $750 for it, worth every penny to me just as the HHKB2 was.

Your comment also hints that we don't all have the same pay ^^.

[jdcarpe]

All value is perceived by consumers, I wanted a Mont Blanc pen and paid $750 for it, worth every penny to me just as the HHKB2 was.

And some of us simply put the Mont Blanc rollerball refill inside a Pilot G2 and have the same writing experience. Just depends on what matters most to you, the experience in using a particular product, or the knowledge that you possess the "best" of that product category.

[002]

I often wonder if Topre-based keyboards would be cheaper if they sold their switches individually like Cherry does.
I guess the nature of how their keyboards are made makes this difficult for them to do. For a long time, Topre's keyboards were only sold to sectors such as data entry, broadcasting, banking and all that crap.

The Juki Celavi which is a data entry keyboard is 150,000 yen ($1800). The EDIUS, which is no different to a Realforce aside from it's keycaps is 70,000 yen ($880).

I guess they're used to charging a lot of money and they're used to selling to people who bundle their keyboards with multi-million yen systems and setups. Realforce is only a relatively new brand for Topre.

[longweight]

All value is perceived by consumers, I wanted a Mont Blanc pen and paid $750 for it, worth every penny to me just as the HHKB2 was.

And some of us simply put the Mont Blanc rollerball refill inside a Pilot G2 and have the same writing experience. Just depends on what matters most to you, the experience in using a particular product, or the knowledge that you possess the "best" of that product category.

Not the same my friend but nice try! For me it is using the product.

Who the hell would use a Mont Blanc roller anyway'?!

[Findecanor]

* I think being being made in Japan and not in China/Taiwan/Malaysia is a large part of the price difference.
* The way that Topre does capacitative sensing also uses a bunch of surface-mounted chips on the PCB, while a board with mechanical switches or membrane needs only one chip: the microcontroller.

Unicomps are built to order, in US. $79.

I am not sure if I got the facts right, but from what I understand, Unicomp would have taken over an existing production line that would otherwise have been scrapped. IBM had already recouped the development costs a long time ago. Topre's development costs are more recent and have to be part of the price of the keyboard.
BTW, what was the original retail price of a Model M keyboard?

[kalrykh]

All value is perceived by consumers, I wanted a Mont Blanc pen and paid $750 for it, worth every penny to me just as the HHKB2 was.

And some of us simply put the Mont Blanc rollerball refill inside a Pilot G2 and have the same writing experience. Just depends on what matters most to you, the experience in using a particular product, or the knowledge that you possess the "best" of that product category.

Not the same my friend but nice try! For me it is using the product.

Who the hell would use a Mont Blanc roller anyway'?!

The same people who buy cars for transportation purposes, instead of using a nice one to compensate for something :p

[codehead]

Nice discussion guys, thanks, but what I was able to gather, it seems to be pretty much the same as choosing between a Lexus and Mercedes But still, won't probably be going to the Topres because like webwit said I too like more sharper tactility.

Oh, and no, I still don't see any justification for the price tag...

[longweight]

Nice discussion guys, thanks, but what I was able to gather, it seems to be pretty much the same as choosing between a Lexus and Mercedes But still, won't probably be going to the Topres because like webwit said I too like more sharper tactility.

Oh, and no, I still don't see any justification for the price tag...

I do still really enjoy cherry switches

[Charlie_Brown_MX]

And some of us simply put the Mont Blanc rollerball refill inside a Pilot G2 and have the same writing experience. Just depends on what matters most to you, the experience in using a particular product, or the knowledge that you possess the "best" of that product category.

I’m not at all sure that’s the same thing. I’m no fan of Mont Blanc, but the ones I’ve tried have been very substantial pens — much moreso than the Pilot G2 (which is a great pen, though). I don’t place much value on feeling like I’m using the best-in-class of any given product, and I tend to avoid branded goods wherever possible, which is a big part of why I dislike Mont Blanc. I’m more interested in the quality of what I’m using, which is more holistic than just the working part.

I have a Pilot fountain pen that wasn’t cheap. I use Sailor Kiro-Guro ink in it. I could, in theory, get the same experience using the same ink in a Lamy Safari, but the experience really isn’t the same. The quality of the pen improves the feeling of writing with the ink.

The build quality of a product is a large part of what makes it better than the cheaper option. Keyboards are a great example of this — you could love, say, Cherry browns, but hate a keyboard that uses them because the case is flimsy and the keycaps are of unbelievably crappy quality. On paper, you get the same experience — the switches are the same, just like the pen refill in your example — but in reality it doesn’t feel the same at all.

I guess they're used to charging a lot of money and they're used to selling to people who bundle their keyboards with multi-million yen systems and setups. Realforce is only a relatively new brand for Topre.

That will probably be a part of it. It’s maybe also an attempt to avoid brand dilution, and to keep their products in the premium end of the market. There are countless formerly luxury brands that have drifted downmarket and lost a lot of their appeal to their former customer base in doing so. Burberry is a great example of that in the UK.

[002]

I too like more sharper tactility.

That pretty much narrows your selection down to Buckling Spring, Cherry Blue or ALPS
Personally I find the smooth tactility of a 45g Topre much more satisfying than any of the above, but of course I might be biased
I really like Buckling Spring but I find that after short periods of use my forearms begin to hurt from using them.

[ripster]

To Topre the keyboard business is mouse nuts.

THIS is their business.

[codehead]

Making crazy money with mud flaps. Just like Nokia with tyres!

[kalrykh]

I'm pretty sure it's the feeling of oneness with cup rubber.

[002]

Refrigeration trucks.
There's heaps of them on Yahoo Auctions Japan

They certainly would be making more money from these and from their car part manufacturing business than keyboards