KBP V60 Matias Switch with IBM and Matias Keycaps

[Hypersphere]

My new Matias keycaps arrived (blank black ABS modifiers), and I installed them on my Keyboard Paradise (KBP) V60 Matias-switch keyboards along with dye-sublimated PBT alpha and number keycaps from IBM 5140 keyboards. I have two V60s, one with Matias Click switches and one with Matias Quiet Click switches. I have fitted both of them with the IBM and Matias keycaps.

Here is a view of the result:

V60MTS1.jpg (960.27 KiB) Viewed 3668 times

As expected, the Matias keycaps fit perfectly on the Matias switches. Everything works, including the stabilizers, even on the spacebar. The Matias keycaps are ABS, but they have a slightly textured surface giving them a good feel. In any event, one doesn't notice the feel of keycaps on modifiers very much compared to the feel of keycaps on alpha keys. The window on the CapsLock key works when viewed from a low angle to the right, but the LED on the V60 is under the upper left portion of the key, so that most of the light leaks from under the keycap on the upper left.

The dye-sublimated PBT keycaps from Alps-mount 5140 keyboards also fit the Matias switches perfectly with no binding whatsoever.

Both V60s are remapped in Karabiner software for the Mac to a HHKB Pro 2 layout with no dead keys. The newly mapped Fn key is on the far right of the bottom row.

Now that keycaps (including spacebars!) are available from Matias that fit the KBP V60 Matias switch keyboards, it is far easier than before to set up keycap combinations to one's liking. They are available with or without legends and in black or white. Thus far, the caps are ABS only, but depending on the success of the Matias 60 group buy, PBT keycaps might be available from Matias in the future. In the meantime, it is possible to harvest keycaps from vintage Alps-mount keyboards, including those with double-shot ABS or dye-sub PBT.

These keyboards are delightful to use. Both the Click and Quiet Click Matias switches provide excellent tactile feedback. True to its name, the Quiet Click switches are indeed quiet, with dampening of both the downstroke and return stroke. I haven't done quantitative sound level measurements or recordings, but my impression is that the V60MTS-Q keyboard is quieter than my HHKB Pro 2 Type-S.

The Click switches do indeed click, adding definitive aural feedback to the pronounced tactile feedback. The Click switches are quite loud -- the typing experience on the V60MTS-C reminds me of typing on my IBM XT keyboard.

Now I have two new favorites to add to my upper tier of keyboards. I like both the V60MTS-C and V60MTS-Q, and it is difficult to choose between them. I think I might give the edge to the Click version, but it is good to have the Quiet version when I am typing within earshot of others who might be disturbed by the joyful noise of a full-feedback mechanical keyboard.

[scottc]

Looks very well. I'm not sure I'd be as dedicated as you are to sourcing better keycaps for one of these boards. Those IBM keycaps look fantastic.

[Hypersphere]

For me, it was well worth the effort and expense to put some first-rate keycaps on the V60 Matias-switch keyboards. However, it would certainly be more convenient and less expensive for the end-user if Matias and/or other companies would produce high-quality keycaps for Matias-switch keyboards.

Dye-sublimated legends on PBT would be ideal, but Matias or others might start with blank PBT along with front-printed and/or and top-printed lasered PBT. Good examples from the Cherry keycap world include the excellent Leopold PBT sets that are available from the Korean vendor "widebasket" on eBay.

Matias has produced some excellent switches, and I think they would sell many more of them along with their keyboards if they were to produce keycaps of commensurate quality.

[khaine1711]

Any chance on a review/post on how the thickness of the cap affects the sound and more importantly the feel of alps switch? Those IBM caps look sexy - did you get the whole portable computer or some sellers on ebay sell the caps separately from the rest?

[Hypersphere]

Any chance on a review/post on how the thickness of the cap affects the sound and more importantly the feel of alps switch? Those IBM caps look sexy - did you get the whole portable computer or some sellers on ebay sell the caps separately from the rest?

I shall put this on my "to do" list. It would be good to do a thorough investigation, complete with caliper measurements of keycap thickness, designation of keycap material, decibel readings, and sound recordings including frequency spectra. I suppose assessment of feel would have to be more subjective.

In the meantime, I can say that from my perspective that keycap thickness tends to be overrated. Compared to the "thick" PBT keycaps in the Cherry world from Ducky, Imsto and Leopold, all the Alps/Matias keycaps I have sampled thus far are rather thin. But thick does not necessarily mean high quality, nor does thin connote inferior quality. Indeed, the wonderful PBT keycaps on vintage IBM Model M and Model F keyboards and those on the HHKB Pro 2 and Realforce boards are comparatively thin. I think what matters is how well the keycaps are matched to their switches and the keyboard; it is part of overall keyboard "tuning". With Alps/Matias switches, it appears that the dimensions of the diminutive switch stem are critical for proper functioning of the switch.

Another thing to note is that I now have identical keycaps on my V60MTS-C and V60MTS-Q keyboards. It is difficult to separate the tactile feedback that is present in both keyboards from the additional aural feedback that is present in the Click keyboard. My impression is that there is more tactility in the Click keyboard, but this might be an illusion created by aural reinforcement of tactile feedback. In any event, the sound is clearly different between the two keyboards. Given that the keycaps and keyboards are identical apart from the switches, the difference in sound must arise from the differences between the two switch types. The Matias Quiet Click switch definitely does an excellent job at dampening both the downstroke and return stroke sounds.

Now, if we use the same keyboard, say the Matias Click version, and vary the keycaps on the same keyboard, I suppose the sound would be altered by changing keycap composition and thickness, just as many have observed with Cherry mx keyboards. Here is where some objective measurements could be helpful.

It is also possible to dampen the downstroke bottoming-out sound on a Matias Click keyboard by installing O-rings. As I mentioned in another post, on a Matias/Alps switch, the O-ring is installed on the switch rather than on the keycap. It is a bit tricky to do this, but it does work. However, on my V60MTS-C, I enjoy the full-blown sound of unfettered switches.

Having said all this, the V60MTS boards do sound and feel better to me after replacing the stock ABS keycaps. The Matias replacements looked better made to me than the stock ABS caps on the V60s, and the IBM keycaps are indeed beautiful to look at and pleasant to touch.

Regarding the IBM caps, I had to buy the entire convertible computers. Thus far, the eBay sellers have not been willing to remove the keycaps or keyboards to sell these separately. However, I managed to find three of these convertible computers for around 50 USD apiece, although shipping ran from about 25 to 37 USD. Nevertheless, 65 to 87 USD shipped for a set of dye-sub PBT keycaps is not bad. I have paid around 90 USD for a keycap set for my HHKB Pro 2 and 150 USD for a set for my RF 87ub 55g keyboard.

There are other keycap options as well, as others on DT have pointed out. For example, Acer 6311 and 6312 keyboards have dye-sub PBT Alps-mount keycaps, and there are various other Alps-mount keyboards, including those in vintage "laptop" computers that have beautiful double-shot keycaps.

[khaine1711]

My Matias boards are coming in next month so I'm still at the researching/collecting info phase. On the whole, how bad is the stock v60mts caps? The first post show that the Matias ABS cap is nicely textured, what about the stock caps? Are they cringe-worthy (make you want to get rid of the board) or they will do till better caps show up?

From what I've seen on ebay, there isn't much difference between the thickness of Alps caps - at least not something like paper-thin ABS vs 1.5mm PBT like in Cherry.

On the topic of vintage board, I have seen 6311, and 6311 accufeel - I seem to recall reading somewhere that the accufeel keycap does not completely fit in the current Matias switch? Have you try the (ugly font) keycap from the AEKII - the wiki mentioned them being dyesub but I haven't seen much discussion about their texture.

Also I've stumbled upon this board on ebay - seems to have various branding on it - this one is named Ortec (Ortek?) 201. Anyone knows if it's PBT or ABS?



Lots of questions but are there any biege spacebar, preferably PBT that fits on the V60? I have seen a few Focus board with standard bottom row (1.25x mod + 6.25x spacebar) but I have no idea if they will fit.

[Hypersphere]

My Matias boards are coming in next month so I'm still at the researching/collecting info phase. On the whole, how bad is the stock v60mts caps? The first post show that the Matias ABS cap is nicely textured, what about the stock caps? Are they cringe-worthy (make you want to get rid of the board) or they will do till better caps show up?

From what I've seen on ebay, there isn't much difference between the thickness of Alps caps - at least not something like paper-thin ABS vs 1.5mm PBT like in Cherry.

On the topic of vintage board, I have seen 6311, and 6311 accufeel - I seem to recall reading somewhere that the accufeel keycap does not completely fit in the current Matias switch? Have you try the (ugly font) keycap from the AEKII - the wiki mentioned them being dyesub but I haven't seen much discussion about their texture.

Also I've stumbled upon this board on ebay - seems to have various branding on it - this one is named Ortec (Ortek?) 201. Anyone knows if it's PBT or ABS?

Spoiler:

Lots of questions but are there any biege spacebar, preferably PBT that fits on the V60? I have seen a few Focus board with standard bottom row (1.25x mod + 6.25x spacebar) but I have no idea if they will fit.

I'll try to answer your various questions.

1. Stock V60 keycaps. You might find them acceptable, but I didn't like the legends and wanted to replace the stock caps as soon as I could.

2. I haven't seen Matias caps with legends, but to me the blanks seemed to be of better quality than the stock KBP caps. The blank Matias caps are just fine for the modifiers. In fact, they fit perfectly, whereas the mods from a Dell AT101W apparently had stems that were slightly too large, so that they caused some binding of the switch unless the travel was reduced by putting O-rings on the switches.

3. I haven't done caliper measurements yet on the thickness of various Als-mount keycaps, but my impression from harvesting caps from various Alps-mount boards is that the thinnest I have seen are on the Focus 2001 and the thickest are from the IBM 5410. I am speaking of the thickness of the outer wall or "skirt" of the keycap.

4. Regarding the Acer 6311 vs Acer 6311 Accufeel, my impression is that the best-fitting caps are from the Acer 6311. This is unfortunate, because the Accufeel has a more complete set, including left-side mods. I was able to get some NIB accufeel boards, and the texture of the caps feels very nice.

5. I haven't actually tried caps from some other boards that have dye-sub PBT Alps-mount keycaps, such as the AEK, AEK II, or Wang 725-3770. The caps on the Apple boards look thicker than some, but I did not like the Italic font or the placement of the legend on the keycap. The Wang keycaps also appear to be of high quality, but I didn't like the grayish color.

EDIT: I have now tried the caps from and AEK (I don't have an AEK II). They fit the V60MTS boards, but the profile is different from most of the other caps I have tried. I have also now tried the caps from a Wang 725-3770 -- these fit very nicely and appear to be the same manufacturer as the ones used by the IBM 5140 (judging by the structure of the underside interior of the caps).

6. I am not sure about that particular Ortek board. I have an Ortek 84 with some very nice-looking Alps-mount keycaps, but when I tried these on the Matias-switch V60 boards, I found that I got some binding in the switches. On the other hand, I have a SIIG Suntouch Jr. 84 with excellent double-shot Alps-mount keycaps, and these fit the Matias switches with no binding.

7. Regarding spacebars, I think the spacebar on the Dell AT101W or the Focus 2001 might be made to fit with some modifications, such as cutting off some small cylindrical plungers and making a stabilizer wire to fit both the spacebar and the mounts on the V60. However, the 6.25x spacebars that you can now get from Matias fit the V60 perfectly. The Matias spacebars are available in black or white.

I know that the traditional thing is to use a spacebar whose color matches the color of the alpha keys, but I actually prefer to use a spacebar whose color matches the modifiers. So, if you use black mods and a black spacebar from Matias, the keys surrounding the alpha keys all match, and the contrast with white alpha keys looks rather good, IMO:

V60MTS3.jpg (902.49 KiB) Viewed 3503 times

Although it has been a challenge to fit my V60 Matias-switch boards with replacement keycaps, I really like the result. I am typing this on my V60MTS-C, which has become my current favorite board and daily driver. It provides the tactile and aural feedback of my IBM XT, but in a 60% form factor with a Mac/HHKB layout mapped using Karabiner software. The V60MTS-C thus combines the features of my other favorite keyboards (IBM XT and HHKB Pro 2) into one package. This V60 is delightful fun to type on.

[khaine1711]

Are all the Acer 6311 6312 dyesub though? While finding cheap board to get keycaps, I stumbled upon this listing:



The letter A seems clearly faded - is the dyesub that thin or is that pbt laser. I still got some cheap dyesub from vortex and I don't think I can scratch off the letter like that (unless with a file or sand paper). I'm a bit lost - should I grab the Acer 6311 to be certain, or any Canon/DG/Acros brand will guarantee a set of dyesub pbt?

This morning I also find a listing of IBM 5140 for 20 bucks, however upon reading the description, they keyboard has been removed

[Hypersphere]

I had a Data General keyboard, which appears to have been pad printed, despite the fact that there was an Acer label on the back. It appears that only the ones that have the Acer trademark on the front have dye-sub PBT keycaps.