Round 5 and Round 6 kits for sale!

[Muirium]

@zslane: SP never could do anything with my SVG graphics, so I gave up on these. If you know how to make them, please go ahead.

Facetsesame is the man to ask. He had SP manufacture Round 5 compatible doubleshot ducks and hashbangs in Honey Sphericals Extras. It's doable, but chaotic!

Perhaps SP rejected 7bit's files because they couldn't open them in Adobe Illustrator? I think that's what they use. It is *vital* to ask them for screenshots of how they see your files. I remember there was trouble. And SP will, amazingly, manufacture total garbage without bothering to check with you. You must lead the QA.

[mtl]

Melissa can send you a PDF that shows how the legend will look on the key. Not sure how accurate it is but seemed close enough:

Spoiler:

pdf.png (27.6 KiB) Viewed 5712 times

[zslane]

7bit, I'm still not seeing HONEYB/CURSORHANDS/SPH ...

I've been using "SVG" as a catch-all for "vector format" since that's the term everyone seems to like around here. Truth is I work in Adobe Illustrator for all my graphics art projects, so sending an Illustrator file to Melissa is not a problem. In fact, it's what I did when I requested a quote for a custom set of caps from SP back before Muirium turned me on to Round 5a.

What I need to get started is a high-res scan of an existing shift key. Can anyone here help with that?

[zslane]

@zslane: SP never could do anything with my SVG graphics, so I gave up on these. If you know how to make them, please go ahead.

Well, that can't be entirely true since Round 5a contains custom Hand, Lotus flower, kbdrunner, and roman numeral legends, does it not? Aren't those defined by vector graphics?

[Muirium]

What I need to get started is a high-res scan of an existing shift key. Can anyone here help with that?

Not me. No scanner.

But do check out Facet's thread:


http://deskthority.net/vendors-f52/hone ... ml#p170393

[Halvar]

Well, that can't be entirely true since Round 5a contains custom Hand, Lotus flower, kbdrunner, and roman numeral legends, does it not? Aren't those defined by vector graphics?

7bot has more than one human slave. Besides 7bit, there are other slaves involved ... Paypal slaves, SVG slaves, explain-it-to-the-newbs slaves, hype slaves etc.

[zslane]

Okay, well, if nobody has both a shift key and a scanner, perhaps someone can send me a shift key (white on black or vice versa perferred, for maximum contrast) and I can scan it myself. You'll get it right back, of course...

[Muirium]

What DPI would you like? I could take a few SHIF T keys to a friend's.

[zslane]

600dpi minimum. I wan't to minimize the impact of anti-aliasing. And preferably a white/black or black/white key for maximum contrast.

(And just to be clear: a scan is prefered over a photo taken with a camera because it avoids lens distortion)

[zslane]

BTW, I'm assuming that the font and/or size of the SHIF T legend on my DSA Dolch keycaps is different from that used on the Honey SA keycaps, yes?

[mtl]

Do we want to do AL T while we're at it? It's a little less egregious but once you notice it..

[zslane]

The other ligatures that pair with T (PRIN T, AL T, DELE TE, etc.) don't look as bad to me.

[infodroid]

7bit, who are the winners of the day?

Everyone who joined Round 5/a.

Aww, yeah! Lovin' the KBD Runners and lotus logos! Don't think it'd be possible to make the lotus for row 3?!

Agree with both points. The runners are really awesome and I am pleased to see in this new round. I will definitely grab a set!

I would also like to see an R3 Lotus in Round 5A. As a Vim user, I have for many years mapped Caps Lock to Escape. When I saw this shot from the cappening it was clear to me that the R3 Lotus is what I need:

The R3 Lotus is pure class!

I already picked up the grey Lotus from R5 leftovers (HONEY/LOTUS175). But the only other colors in R5, the red (HONEY/LOTUS175S/RED) and black (HONEY/LOTUS175S/BLACK), are stepped, which I cannot use because my keyboards need a centre mount. So I'm looking for non-stepped black, blue and red.

[facetsesame]

Careful with adding all these new kits, 7bit! 5A/HONEYB was going to be a quick simple round ahead of Round 6, right?...

About the SHIFT, I'd be wary of going down the SVG route.

As has been mentioned, SP use a version of Adobe Illustrator (and I don't) and for Honey Sphericals Extras I was finding scaling problems with exports from Inkscape which I could never get to the bottom of (and I tried enough iterations to annoy both me and SP - I never verified a single factor...) We got around this by providing a supporting PDF, quoting the dimensions, and had a screenshot sent back showing the rescaled and correct dimensions in Illustrator. We had to do this for the duck because to SP it seemed to be going over the legendable area boundary. We got a great result in the end (thanks matt3o!).

The #! (hashbang) legend didn't get any such check though, so it was waved through, and production messed it up... twice... The legend itself was intended to match the tall Round 5 alphas, but it came out a bit thicker than intended on the row 3 key. When they remade it as the row 1 key it was supposed to be, they upped the thickness dramatically because the tooling was recut on a different machine...

The other thing about submitting an SVG is that the tooling made is likely to be bound a single key size and shape. This means multiple legends would need to be paid for and means more scope for errors.

Possibly all that needs to be done is for SP to shave a tiny fraction off their T. Maybe we could try having a chat to them about this, supported with some intense macro shots...

[facetsesame]

About the HONEYB/FUNCTION kit legends, I submitted a large batch of them due to apparent lack of interest (because Round 5 was still in full swing). Some of them were in jest and I wasn't expecting them to all be accepted! I'd be up for reviewing them if others who've purchased the kits are too.

(please can we keep the 7BOT MODE and the interrobang? )

[tofagerl]

After a week of me and 7bot having intense negotiations, I think I'm finally finished with my order, but I now need to have things shipped in two rounds, HONEY and HONEYB. How do I fix that, since there's apparently no way to do it automatically?

[7bit]

After a week of me and 7bot having intense negotiations, I think I'm finally finished with my order, but I now need to have things shipped in two rounds, HONEY and HONEYB. How do I fix that, since there's apparently no way to do it automatically?

Just order the HONEYB kit.


http://deskthority.net/wiki/R5a#Shipping

[tofagerl]

Nevermind, I must have misunderstood comments made earlier in the thread. CBA finding it.
Thanks!

[tofagerl]

By the way, 7bot is great, what tech did you use? Forum addon or web scraper?

[Muirium]

Neither. It's all done by email.

And SSSSHHHH! It's a terrible system. He sells to a much smaller audience of buyers than he would with a simple web store. People forever get confused and wander off.

[tofagerl]

I must admit I would prefer a "shopping cart"

[Muirium]

And a reliable shipping date! We have no idea when these will ship. Now that 7bit is adding a bunch more stuff, I absolutely honestly wouldn't be surprised if they've just slipped to 2017. That's the pattern we faced with 2013's Round 5.


@Facetsesame:

I agree with you on everything apart from modding their existing T type. That could be a total disaster! And any modification to make FT look better will make LT and especially NT worse. If this is to be fixed by moveable type (which is ultimately the right way to do it) it needs to be a with a new piece: a professionally crafted ligature for FT based on the existing type but not replacing it!

And SP then needs to actually use it. Better point them to the dictionary. The words are kerning and ligature.

[Zuluoz]

I will admit at times I was sceptical of ever recieving anything, however mine arrived this week and finally it's all mounted and I'm typing away on them right now.

They are absolutely worth the wait, this is EXACTLY the keyboard that I was looking for.

I think you could re-run this set from now until the end of time and never run out of buyers!

Thanks again!

[tofagerl]

I'm sure it could work like a once a year run... Round 2016.

[facetsesame]

I agree with you on everything apart from modding their existing T type. That could be a total disaster! And any modification to make FT look better will make LT and especially NT worse. If this is to be fixed by moveable type (which is ultimately the right way to do it) it needs to be a with a new piece: a professionally crafted ligature for FT based on the existing type but not replacing it!

And SP then needs to actually use it. Better point them to the dictionary. The words are kerning and ligature.

Exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for, thank you! I knew there must be a reason why something so straightforward hadn't already been proposed. I was looking only at ETU on my Round 5 ISO RETURN as a single data point. But indeed, the problem I fear is that once you start adjusting one, how will all the others look...

A ligature for sure is the best way to go, providing SP can physically use such a thing. (I don't see why not but I'm not that intimately familiar with the production techniques to be certain.) If we can get there, the challenge then is for group buy organisers to define when it should and shouldn't be used.

p.s. the other thing I forgot to mention on the subject of SVGs is that even the Illustrator screenshots/pdfs (thanks mtl!) are indicative and are caveated as not absolutely matching final production. This is to allow for minor variances in the manufacturing process but does mean that you can't be absolutely sure how the legend will look until a key has been made.

[facetsesame]

I will admit at times I was sceptical of ever recieving anything, however mine arrived this week and finally it's all mounted and I'm typing away on them right now.

They are absolutely worth the wait, this is EXACTLY the keyboard that I was looking for.

I think you could re-run this set from now until the end of time and never run out of buyers!

Thanks again!

It always makes me happy to read accounts like this! I've always believed in them, but they've felt so distant at times. To be typing on Round 5 caps now (even after a few weeks) is a joy.

I'm sure it could work like a once a year run... Round 2016.

What d'you reckon 7bit? Rolling group buy?

[tofagerl]

But honestly there should be a much smaller selection, and then there could be four or five extra unique sets every year. Like an extra colorway that you can just get in a TKL set or something.

[iAmAhab]

Yeah, arbitrary limits on sets is just great.

[zslane]

Maybe I am being somewhat misled when people use the term "SVG" around here. SVG stands for scalable vector graphics, and though the format can be used to store raster graphics, that is pretty much a waste of its capabilities. I don't know why anyone would work on keycap legends in a paint program, but it seems that all of the scaling issues I read about could have been avoided had vector curves been used.

I work in Illustrator. The idea is to work in the domain of math, not the domain of pixels. There is no point in the process where I should be choosing a dpi. Once I have hand-traced the letter glyphs from a high-resolution scan, I will be working exclusively with curves. If I have the precise glyph dimensions correct--based on the scan(s) and with whatever help/information I can get from SP--I can send them an Illustrator file and the RIP in their own equipment will convert the vector curves into as exact a shape as their equipment is capable of. I don't need to be trying to approximate the shapes with pixels at a fixed dot-pitch. That way lies madness.

This is not to say that there won't be challenges in getting it right, or that it won't be an iterative process. Nothing that involves the kind of precision we are looking for is ever perfect on the first try. But if SP's equipment is capable of generating the same legend glyphs from a vector description as it is from their metal type blocks, then there is no reason why we can't make new legends that are indistinguishable to the naked eye using digital methods.

So, by any chance does anyone out there have both SP's DSA Dolch set and a Round 5 shift key? If so, tell if me the SHIFT legends appear identical or not; if they are identical I can scan the Dolch shift key myself. But there's no point in doing that if they are different, which is something I can't determine on my own.

[zslane]

added.

So 7bit, what was the above post in reference to?

I thought it was in response to my suggestion for HONEYB/CURSORHANDS/SPH but I don't see that on the 5a GB list, so did I misunderstand?

The more Muirium talks about putting cursorhands in the nav cluster, the more I am warming to the idea myself, but they really need to be SPH grey to properly match the original Space Cadet keyboard.