What costs in Topres? I don't get it.

[fuzzybaffy]

What I don't get, is how people can pass judgment on Topre boards as "overpriced", without having actually owned one. =P

I just received a Cherry MX Brown board today, and it's sitting side by side with a Topre RF87u that I've owned the past year:




... And I don't know what to say, because Topre switches are of significantly higher quality than Cherry MX switches. The switches are significantly smoother, more solid, and have less wobble than Cherry MX switches. The difference in feel is hard to describe, but there really is indeed a big difference in quality (vs. Cherry MX switches).

Also, my Cherry MX board flexes, while it's very difficult to flex my Realforce board. Granted, my Cherry MX board isn't a Filco, and is a Korean brand, which seems to have just re-branded Keycool keyboards, but I have owned a Filco for a brief period of time as well, and it wasn't quite as solid as my Realforce, either.

As someone mentioned earlier, the moment I opened up my Realforce box, my first impression was that it was meant to be used as a professional tool - and I'm not saying this in an exaggerated fan-boi manner; I mean it literally. They are just built really, really solidly, and I can absolutely see them being used in a recording studio, a bank, or what-have-you.

If typical $5 rubber domes are "consumer" products, Cherry MX boards I would say are "prosumer" products (a term we often hear with digital cameras), and Topre Realforces would indeed seem (keyword "seem"; I'm not making a definitive claim) to be professional products.

So, yes, with their higher build quality, higher switch quality, and higher key-cap quality, I can see why Realforce boards cost $260, and I would absolutely have no problem paying that price again for another one.

Now, THAT BEING SAID (this is important!), this doesn't mean that I think everybody will LIKE Realforce boards. What people like is absolutely a matter of subjective opinion, and that is different from answering the question of whether Realforce boards are "worth it" or not.

All I'm saying is, given the higher quality of Realforce boards, switches, and key-caps, I can understand why they are priced the way they are.

It's like, a rich billionaire may prefer driving their BMW everyday, rather than their Ferrari, as a matter of convenience, preference, etc. But I'm pretty sure he would still see the Ferrari's costs as being "justified", given all the specifications of a Ferrari. My point with this isn't to compare the Realforce to a Ferrari, but I'm just trying to illustrate how someone preferring something may be different than what someone deems "justified" in terms of cost.

Just my two cents.

[Travellerr]

I can understand the questioning of price with a keyboard that is priced 250 plus usd. Anyways, that said, I did happen to purchase a Leopold fc660c and replace the pbt keycaps with dye sublimated ones. Meaning I spent about as much as one would pay for a HHKB Pro 2, and I was pretty pissed when I did not care for the switch type at first...I was livid( granted the key switch felt different from anything I have used before, but at first I just was not digging it). Anyways I paid a bunch for this keyboard which I would have to sell and lose out of on money if I wanted to make any of my cash back, so I decided to give it more than a couple hours of a chance. I am very very glad I did, it is now my daily driver at home and I will be honest I love cherry products and respect their switches but I have a very hard time going back and typing on my blue and or brown mechanical switches. I do not mean by any of this that this keyboard is worth more than 200 dollars but I do not regret buying this keyboard in the slightest...would I be happier if it only cost 120 like some better cherry mechanical keyboards? most certainly, but you also have tons of different manufacturers all trying to come out with different cherry mechanical keyboards with nicer quality at a better price point, a lot more competition. You definitely do not have with the topre switch keyboard, it is much more of a enthusiast keyboard then the rest, and imo adds to the price. I still say from experience this keyboard is worth it on just the feeling while using these switches for both typing(which I find excuses to do just use this thing) and gaming(which though some disagree, I find this keyboard great for fps and mmos alike.).

[ollir]

Just don't buy a Realforce, I couldn't spend all day looking at the vast expanse of plastic above the function keys.

But, but.. you can put stuff in that space so it's useful!

[urbancamo]

What Travellerr said - same experience here basically...

[Muirium]

Judging every MX based keyboard by a single cheap one, eh? That's not a fair fight.

Besides: MX brown is a poor representative of all MX. I prefer Topre, too, but blues and greens have got a lot of character and red and blacks are good switches as well. Some people love browns, but I'm no fan.

The real thing Topre has going for its quality is the lack of low-end keyboards. And the main thing Topre has working against its adoption is the lack of low-end keyboards.

[dorkvader]

High-reliability input devices cost money. For example, ITAC wants realforce prices for their trackballs. While I enjoy using my ITAC trackball daily (and it is miles better than CST and other trackballs without proper ball bearings) I'm not convinced it is worth the price.

In a similar vein, the IBM dials cost about $900 back in 1983. The quality is indeed very high (especially on those japan servo potentiometers). These items have lower production numbers and are targeted towards a market that will pay extra (sometimes a lot extra) for something that'll last. Those $250 ITAC trackballs are now over 10 years old, show signs of heavy use and all still work, with the only issue being some wear of the microswitches (which are only rated for 1 million keypresses) and the plastic.

My general dymanics keyboard shows excellent construction used throughout. Like Topre it's a capacitive rubber dome KB with NKRO (and dyesub PBT keycaps, though the difference is my spacebar is also PBT), and like Topre it's designed to be reliable: even to the point of being fully sealed. The major difference is that it's targeted to the millitary market. I fully expect that it costs the US government an entire order of magnitude more than a topre kb, based on the market (military), construction (magnesium) and component choice (the mil-spec connector is from amphenol and costs about $100 all by itself).

Now, production costs aside, Topre charges a decent price for their product, considering the market it's for. There have certainly been lower quality products sold at higher prices, especially in that market.

[002]

My general dymanics keyboard

Did you post pics of this keyboard somewhere?

[Psychlolis]

The reason why I bought a Topre was because it didn't feel like anything out there...

Here are my thoughts:
IMHO, mechanical keyboards, especially heavier switches ones, are cheap imitations of typewriters. There was only one to get the feeling right and that's the model M. Again, for someone who learned how to type on a mechanical typewriter (typing class in school), the last thing I need is pushing down on over 80-100g of force. Don't believe me? Go to a swap meet, get a mechanical typewriter, and press on it! Try that for several hours a day and you know the deal...

Now my Topre thoughts:
1st. The typing experience is definitely different, not a mechanical, not a membrane, but like Hannah Montana once said, "you've got the best of both worlds..."
2nd. The quality. PBT keycaps, the board feels good, not it's heavy and built like a tank but a modernized version of quality. Everything is built to break soon, law of manufacturing, but this feels like I can type for years (my oldest board is 3 years old and she feels like the day I got her) and I have for 10-12 hours straight.
3rd. It is exclusive. You don't see many boards and you don't see many people that use them. Being in a tech company you see the cheap keyboards (Razers, Steelforce, etc.) but you put my 87U next to them and the Topre looks like quality. You type on it and it is divine!
4th. It's a typist keyboard and gaming keyboard last. There are two reasons why Topres are used in data entry and it's because you can type for hours... Writers, data entry, programmers, people that use keyboards for 8-12 hours daily use them. I use a keyboard for 12-14 hours a day and I never get finger or hand fatigue.

TLDR: An amazing typing experience if you write, type, enter data for 8-12 hours! You won't experience fatigue, pain, discomfort, but that comes at a price. Mind you, with inflation the Model M would cost close to 900 USD, and people today are spending 300 USD for a mint condition Model M board, let alone a new Model M (500-600). I think that Topre is the new Model M without the type writer sound and force. It's a keyboard for the 21st century IMO.

[kbdfr]

I love those dythirambic Topre posts

@Psycholis
Your thoughts are highly subjective, of course, but comparing mechanical keyboards with typewriters is just pure nonsense (says someone who not only learnt typing on a mechanical typewirter, but actually used one for years).
I won't discuss your #1.
I won't even deny your #2 (but mention that before switching to another one I used a Cherry MX board for about ~20 years, and it is still in perfect condition).
But your #3 is just rubbish. If that's one of the main reasons to have a Topre, then you can as well walk the streets clad in aluminium foil, hammer your fingernails blue or sleep in a coffin.
As for your #4, you say "[t]here are two reasons why Topres are used in data entry and it's because […]", but then name only one. By the way, I definitely belong (and have been belonging for more than 3 decades) to "people that use keyboards for 8-12 hours daily […]". I also "use a keyboard for 12-14 hours a day and I never get finger or hand fatigue", but I use Cherry MX keyboards, not Topre.

So I think we are in quite a similar position: we are both using keyboards with which we are highly satisfied.
The only difference I see, though, is that you paid way, way more and drool at yours being "exclusive"

[002]

cherry mx is shit m8 just accept it as fact and move on kappa

[pcaro]

That's the reason I love deskthority ... There always a rason to open a two years old topic to start a Topre-cherry war

[HAL]

That's the reason I love deskthority ... There always a rason to open a two years old topic to start a Topre-cherry war

I am working as a software developer and I have used Model Ms exclusively for over 20 years. I am very impressed with the Reafforce 87U 55g.

The cost of the Topre is easily explained:

sorry for the potato pic

Realforce_87U_55g_Numpag_45g_1280x720.jpg (264.65 KiB) Viewed 4143 times

Realforce 87U 55g from Elitekeyboard + shipping to Austria + customs ~ 300 €
Pink keycap set + shipping to Austria + customs ~ 150 €
Numpad + shipping to Austria + customs ~ 150 €

I you are living in Japan or Korea theese boards are not that expensive but in Autria theese cost a fortune

But I like the good feeling of oneness with cup rubber.

[TuxKey]

Yesterday i went to the Dutch keyboard meetup which was a lot of fun.
I didn't feel that good and did not look forward to 4hours of driving..
But i thought i should share my Topre FC660C and my mx-clears FC660M.

To my surprise there where way more Topre Boards which i really liked although most of them HHK2 there where two RealForce 78U boards there..And even a NovaTouch TKL..

But i was the only Leopold FC660C so my which to share something with the dutch community worked out..
Between the Ergo-Dox boards and planks, and cheap $50 non cherry boards the biggest surprise for me was the NovaTouch.

I while back i tried it for a minut in a store and my experience was awful
I thought Topre switches where just glorified rubber domes or overpriced rubber domes..

Because the NovaTouch was a big disappointment.
But yesterday i met a guy that lubed the modifiers and did the dental mod and bought a nice keycap set..don't remember the name but i read somewhere that this keycap set works best with the NovaTouch..
Final conclusion the NovaTouch is awesome after some modding really like it..and i'm thinking of getting one just for fun to do some modding of corse that would mean bothering Muirium for sum extra topre o-rings

and if there is a mod to make it a programmable keyboard the NovaTouch with it's current price point would be a great Topre board..


question is the RealForce overpriced ?
Looking at the promise of quality and the fact that it delivers and that the market for it is small i would conclude NO it isn't overpriced..
But i think it's not there yet for the asking price.

What is it missing in my humble opinion. (to justify the asking price)
- needs to be programable , why the heck not for $300 it might as wel be.
- removable cable with a nice cable management system that's wide enough so i can use an adapter cable..for quick disconnect.
- Cherry compatible stems. i really hate having to pay $150 for a keycap set..
- needs to have a uniform 50gr model S (a bit heavier than 45 but lighter than 55gr)
- A smaller top bezel i like the old school model but it doesn't make it as portable as a nice compact TKL board.

If Realforce would make such a board and preferably sell it inside the EU for the same price as people in the US pay for it.
i would go for it without blinking.. that said my FC660C did cost me $250 and i don't regret getting that but that is my price limit i would only consider paying more if that keyboard was F..ing perfect looking at it would bring a tear of joy to my eye and tell me everything's gonna be alright hahahah...

Currently i'm slumming typing on my FC660M mx-clears hahaha..because i mis the scratchy heavy clears..
All that buttery eventless smoothens sometimes gets a bit tiring.

in my humble opinion there is no such thing as the perfect switch.. But only the switch that best suits your needs at that moment.

in case of Cherry switches it's time for something new...
Perhaps a cherry mx-clear stem with mx-brown spring..not to heavy but nice and tacitly and a well lubed...

Thinking of keyboard/switch manufactures they all seem to be focused on gimmicks instead of quality and giving us a different feel..so it's no wonder lots of us love Topre switches..Finally a different feeling..

[shreebles]

MX Brown spring should be the same as Red, Blue.

Combining those with Clear stems could result in the switches "sticking" (not coming back up) which is why most people go for 62g custom springs. You could make the MX Brown spring work with lube, but some switches might still stick.

Your safest bet if you want MX switches and smooth light tactility, use Zealios or purple Zealio stems. Those work fine with the lighter Cherry springs, typing on them right now. They don't stick and feel less bumpy than Cherry Clears. Also the keycaps don't get stuck on them which is a big plus.