Brexit: The DT Poll

[seebart]

Seems this entire situation has become quite unpredictable. Don't play with fire if you can't handle it. London is politically more messed post Brexit than anyone else.

So, that's what my question has been the whole time in regards to Brexit... was it more of a political move than anything else, taking advantage of those that were overly concerned about immigration to make a power play on Cameron.

That's what it seems like with the backtracking, and the fact that the timing of invoking Article 50 seems to be rather more malleable and fluid now, than it was in rhetoric before.

Am I seeing this correctly?

Yes that is correct although obviously no one knew exactly (and they sill don't know to this point) how this will play out. Just look at Boris Johnson, he's not gotton his way. So yes I'm sure many politicians had their speculations and ideas on how this might work their way but it's a huge gamble with an unkown outcome. Also remember that the vote was pretty close, so the Brexit never was really clear at any point. From what I've read in the news the Brexit has evoked the most intense political chaos that the UK has experienced in many decades and this is just the beginning. And of course Brussels has shit their pants intensely.

was it more of a political move than anything else, taking advantage of those that were overly concerned about immigration to make a power play on Cameron.

Yes thats exactly what it was about.

It is not so clear over here in the US, but in real life, was there actually any substantial number of people (besides those who were foaming at the mouth all along) who seriously considered Leave to have a chance of passing?

I understand the Remain camp being flabbergasted, but I have to imagine that the Leave group was almost as surprised at its own success.

For whatever reason the majority did apparently not believe the Brexit would happen. Pretty strange situation.

[Halvar]

I still think that most people believed in the oracle of the bookmakers, who clearly predicted a Leave victory, because many people believed in a Leave victory.

Typical circularity problem.

[vivalarevolución]

I feel like an observer of a world going mad. Or it's always been this way and I'm only becoming aware of the situation.

I blame the 24-hour cable news and the Internet.

[fohat]

I feel like an observer of a world going mad. Or it's always been this way and I'm only becoming aware of the situation.

I blame the 24-hour cable news and the Internet.

The world has always been mad, and knowledge and transparency are the path out of it.

24-hour news and the internet would/could/should have been our best hope of climbing out of the morass of ignorance and confusion, but the 1% realized long ago that misinformation could best be disseminated via the "new media" and moved quickly to consolidate their control of it.

My wife is a (consumer-oriented) magazine editor who has been in the business since the 1980s, and "fact-checking" was always supremely important to every word on every page.

Today, in public, not so much. I can't remember the movie where the newspaper owner said "Evidence? I don't need evidence - I own 17 newspapers!"

Look at Donald Trump - net Mexico-to-US immigration has been essentially zero since 2010. Has he ever said THAT?

[Invisius]

I feel like an observer of a world going mad. Or it's always been this way and I'm only becoming aware of the situation.

I blame the 24-hour cable news and the Internet.

The world has always been mad, and knowledge and transparency are the path out of it.

24-hour news and the internet would/could/should have been our best hope of climbing out of the morass of ignorance and confusion, but the 1% realized long ago that misinformation could best be disseminated via the "new media" and moved quickly to consolidate their control of it.

My wife is a (consumer-oriented) magazine editor who has been in the business since the 1980s, and "fact-checking" was always supremely important to every word on every page.

Today, in public, not so much. I can't remember the movie where the newspaper owner said "Evidence? I don't need evidence - I own 17 newspapers!"

Look at Donald Trump - net Mexico-to-US immigration has been essentially zero since 2010. Has he ever said THAT?

This probably is true for most larger outlets, but it's never been easier to access smaller ones or citizen journalism.

I think mob-mentality sites like Reddit and Facebook have a big task in overcoming this "new media", but it's not hopeless. The internet always gives the opportunity to look beyond all that, where for many, there was no such opportunity before.

[seebart]

Since the proliferation of real broadband internet the media "coverage" of pretty much everything has increased tenfold if not more. All our "mobile devices" then provide us with all this anytime provided signal reception.

runter.jpg (43.93 KiB) Viewed 4896 times

[andrewjoy]

I feel like an observer of a world going mad. Or it's always been this way and I'm only becoming aware of the situation.

I blame the 24-hour cable news and the Internet.

The world has always been and always has been bat shit crazy!

Just read up on the few weeks leading up to WW1 to see how insane human kind can be.

[fohat]

Just read up on the few weeks leading up to WW1 to see how insane human kind can be.

The first half of the 20th century had to be the most dramatic short-term era - ever.

The "Industrial Revolution" was climaxing with one technological breakthrough after another, yet a very large portion of the human race had hardly yet moved out of the Bronze Age and was incredulous and panicked at what was happening around them.

[vivalarevolución]

Since the proliferation of real broadband internet the media "coverage" of pretty much everything has increased tenfold if not more. All our "mobile devices" then provide us with all this anytime provided signal reception.

runter.jpg

That art installation there reminds me of a moment in the airport a few years, when I did not yet own a smartphone. I was looking up at all the other passengers waiting for the plane to begin boarding, and I was the only one not viewing my phone. The world at that moment became an entertainment pie for me to observe, rather than feeling like an active participant. Now such scenes are common place, of course, and I am as guilty as anyone else.

We are more connected than ever, but this allows us to be more disconnected from our immediate surroundings, and, to some degree, distracted from ourselves.

[vivalarevolución]

And the UK sticks it to Brussels again!

Screenshot_2016-07-01-16-50-35.png (553.78 KiB) Viewed 4830 times

[seebart]

But that's Wales, that's like New Mexico beating Canada at logging sports.

[photekq]

Yes, Wales. Don't give England any credit; their play has been an absolute joke.

[Chyros]

The Welsh did vote to exit. That said, I think they played quite well, a deserved win .

[adhoc]

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/6 ... ter-Brexit

Obviously not due to brexit, but still. FTSE100 booms, FTSE250 back to pre-brexit vote level.

But...UK is going to bankrupt any minute now! -says the german

With Hofer getting a reelection in Austria, La Pen and Wilders getting more attention in FR/NL...I can almost smell EU falling apart. Let's hope for the best!

Imagine that, no more enforced EU laws by unelected figures, only economical shared interest (which kinda will be mandatory to even hope to compete with the world).

Can't wait. In celebration, I will make myself a new passport when the day comes. Thanks UK!

[seebart]

Is it all a German conspiracy adhoc?

[adhoc]

Come on now seebart, I KNOW you're smarter than that.

[seebart]

Oh thanks, but I don't know if you're smarter than that.

Spoiler:

Just kidding.

[adhoc]

Oh mate, as long as German engineers pay me to help them with their research, Germans calling me stupid means literally nothing to me. By calling me stupid you're calling your researches even more stupid.

[seebart]

You can't take a joke? I think you can, just not from a German. I'll call all of Germany stupid! Especially researches.

[adhoc]

Of course, Germans are root of all evil. You've been thought that since you were born, so you must not doubt it!

I've been called stupid by a German in this thread before, I just didn't feel like responding to it.

Calling Germans stupid is insincere and you know it. Germany is one of the driving forces in technology in the world. I have great respect for Germans. Your politics, on the other hand...

[seebart]

Aha. OK whatever you say. Don't take everything so serious man. I have never been taught that I'm evil ?!? I still say you have a problem with Germans in general which is your right. If I insulted you I apologize. I thought my joke was clear as a joke.

[adhoc]

Yeah I know, you made up your mind to almost religious level, so I feel no point in convincing you otherwise.

[vivalarevolución]

The Welsh did vote to exit. That said, I think they played quite well, a deserved win .

I guess that I did not check the numbers for Wales, but the map certainly looks like they voted to exit. I must be discounting the strength of the vote from the south coast of Wales.

It was a great win. But not having Aaron Ramsey and Ben Davies against Portugal will definitely be a challenge (the yellow card rule is ridiculous, two cards in five games is too harsh). If Portugal wins the next game, they will surely be the least deserving Euro finalist in recent memory. Even without Ramsey and Davies, I would not count out Wales, because Portugal has been far from convincing and the Welsh seem to have something up their sleeve at every stage of this tournament so far.

[kbdfr]

[…] Imagine that, no more enforced EU laws by unelected figures […]

I just can't hear that shit anymore.

Do you at all know how and by whom EU laws are made?
The EU Commission, which has the exclusive right to initiate legislation,
is composed of 28 members, one from each Member State, where it is chosen by the government.
As the governments of the Member States are without exception democratically determined through elections,
in each country a democratically legitimated body, the government, designates a member of the EU Commission.

So all EU laws are initiated by a body made exclusively of persons which have been designated by democratically legitimated governments.
As I said: initiated. That does not even mean that they are decided upon yet (ever heard of the EU Parliament and the Council of the EU?).

But well, how about informing yourself about facts instead of just repeating buzz-words you've taken up somewhere?

[webwit]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matthew ... 14608.html

[adhoc]

I understand that you have to be pro-EU, because you have the most to gain from it. I understand that on paper, in theory, EU is a democratic organization, but in reality is a selected few working against the people. If this wasn't so, why is the EU crisis happening? I understand how EU parliament, comission, and council are elected. I'm also not saying I know everything aboit politics or that I am any sort of authority on the matter.

Let's take a look at some Juncker quotes, shall we?

"We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."
referring to his colleagues in the European Council

"If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'."
On the 2005 French referendum on the Lisbon Treaty

"I am astonished at those who are afraid of the people: one can always explain that what is in the interest of Europe is in the interests of our countries."
"Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?""

"Monetary policy is a serious issue. We should discuss this in secret, in the Eurogroup [...] I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious [...] I am for secret, dark debates."
Jean-Claude Juncker, 20 April 2011, quoted in "Eurogroup chief: 'I'm for secret, dark debates'

"There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties."



Please explain to me, how come that this crisis is sweeping Europe, if everything is so perfect, democratic and in the interest of the people?

Personally, I think EU was a great idea. It is a must in the current world, that the European countries share economical interests. It's the shared politics that I'm not so fond of.

[webwit]

IORP-II man. EU pension policies.

On June 15, they decided on it in a secret meeting. After the Brexit vote, the results were released. Why did they hide it? Because the UK saved most pension money, together with the Netherlands, which after Brexit, will have 60% of all saved pension funds in the EU, over 1 trillion euro. No one knows about IORP-II. The good news is that the rest of the EU cannot take our pension funds directly, which was in the first draft. The bad news is that it says countries with no good pensions funds should be helped by countries that have one. It could mean our pensions are not indexed in order to pay for pensions elsewhere where they consumed instead of saved.

If that would have been all out in the open, any Dutch party who would vote in favour of it would have been decimated. And Brexit would have won with a higher percentage.

[seebart]

That the behemoth self-administration in Bruessels is highly unproductive (they can't even enforce a (Br)exit)) whilst costing the EU members billions in Euros is no "buzz-word" kbdfr. The original founding idea distorted and convulsed into this weak colossus worth little (to me and many others) and needs to be reformed from the bottom up.

You like my "buzz-words" kbdfr?

[webwit]

Check out this video (it's in Dutch but it has subtitles). Action starts at 4:00. If an EP member signs to be present, this person gets 300 euro for expenses. But the meetings are suspiciously empty. Turns out many sign they are present and then immediately leave. So some journalists started making videos of that, confronting them.

The reaction of the EU? Did they get rid of the corruption? No. The journalists were out of line, how dare they? They made new rules so the media cannot shoot this kind of video any longer. One of the pushing guys in the video was later arrested on a 350 million fraud. What a wonderful organisation of such lovely people.

[seebart]

This is no news to me. Here have been more than one documented cases of German EU delegates not attending hearings. I like the video though, reminds me of this one: