(Model MF) Remodeling the Model M (aka.. the Mara)

[lot_lizard]

If you look closely at the images I$ made of the Gerber files, you can see the legends. I should have been more specific earlier when leaving out backspace (I'll edit.. Good catch). The take away is this, every spot on the board where there is a barrel, I$ added a spot on the PCB to allow someone to use the barrel as a valid key (including the stabilizers). I will take a picture later of how the caps line up, but essentially only the right most barrel of right shift would allow for anything larger than 1u (it would support 1.5). Backspace split looks beautiful, even maintaining the overall symmetry of the board, but all other combinations leave either gaps between the split keys, or gaps around the perimeter (voiding visual symmetry). Someone could always CAD up and have custom one piece caps made to correct that though. It would even be a candidate for a hobby mold setup (though getting the colors to match stock might prove tricky if that was your goal)

EDIT: only the spacebar stabilzer barrel is unsupported at the moment

[lot_lizard]

I have updated the OPs with the updates for the metal plates and final deliverable for phase 1 (the drop-in). There is quite a bit there... so be ready for a long read. Click the link below to proceed (with caution )

workshop-f7/remodeling-the-model-m-t137 ... ml#p308668

Teaser... Long story short... Only mild tweaks... IT'S ALIVE

EDIT: My original link when to the wrong post. Sorry if you clicked it and wondered what that fuss was about

[lot_lizard]

We discussed earlier about the functional stabilizer keys. This is the picture that would try to help show the gaps. Note the only key with the 1.5u in it is the right shift. The other three are left shift, enter, and backspace. Again, it wouldn't be hard to create keys for left shit, right shit, and enter that maintain the outer key profile and eliminate any key gaps (backspace is already perfect at two 1u's). It is certainly something to consider for those that like splits. Backspace is the bottom right (perfect), bottom left is enter (key gap between the splits and slightly on the outside), top right is left shit (again... key gap and slight outside issues), and top left is right shift (only real issue is outside alignment after adding the 1.5u)

EDIT: apologize. The original picture was rotated incorrectly and cropped horribly. It has been corrected

[hammelgammler]

I have updated the OPs with the updates for the metal plates and final deliverable for phase 1 (the drop-in). There is quite a bit there... so be ready for a long read. Click the link below to proceed (with caution )

workshop-f7/remodeling-the-model-m-t137 ... ml#p308668

Teaser... Long story short... Only mild tweaks... IT'S ALIVE

Oh wow, a FSSK with winkeys! That's awesome. When can be buy the drop-in-replacement?
I have two FSSK PCB's ready to go.

[tentator]

I see.. you're right, and about the split spacebar.. maybe on a FSSKrev2?
I think the FSSK anyways has still not the winkeys right? So will need a PCB v2..

Btw my worry about the bottom line was more because if you look at the unicomp model m which also has winkeys and even menu keys it looks like the following.. and I think they provide for that bottom line all 1.25u keys:

photo109275380194585914.jpg (271.23 KiB) Viewed 5959 times

So if I try to use standard 1.5u and 1u on it it looks with a bit of space in between as well:

photo109275380194585916.jpg (151.57 KiB) Viewed 5959 times

So my doubt is that if I want to use an FEXT on an unicomp to make use of the winkeys (a metakey left and a fn key right) which I'd really like to have (split spacebar and menu keys are really not a must), then I think that since on a regular M it seems there is almost just space for an 1u key then the FEXT PCB will not really have the right alignment for the 1.25u keys.. ok maybe they still register but this I will only know by trying as soon as I can do the test with a FEXT (hope soon).

[tentator]

I have two FSSK PCB's ready to go.

is your FSSK PCB having really winkeys already??

[lot_lizard]

Oh wow, a FSSK with winkeys! That's awesome. When can be buy the drop-in-replacement?
I have two FSSK PCB's ready to go.

Hate being the bearer of bad news, and I should have mentioned in the OP, but the winkeys don't have pads in the original FSSK. I realized after I was clacking away and wondered why they weren't registering. He has in the FEXT, and will have when we finally decide to group buy this stuff. I have all the quotes in except the plastics. I'm still waiting on my "dead beat" lab to give me the makeup of the flippin flipper

[tentator]

yeah that's why I'm having this very bad idea in my mind to take my unicomp m, the FEXT and a hacksaw.. put it together and guess.. ))

[lot_lizard]

So my doubt is that if I want to use an FEXT on an unicomp to make use of the winkeys (a metakey left and a fn key right) which I'd really like to have (split spacebar and menu keys are really not a must), then I think that since on a regular M it seems there is almost just space for an 1u key then the FEXT PCB will not really have the right alignment for the 1.25u keys.. ok maybe they still register but this I will only know by trying as soon as I can do the test with a FEXT (hope soon).

I have the metal already processed for the FEXT. It's next. In version two of the PCB, he will slide the pads over slightly, but I have tested manually, and your v1 PCB will still work. The flippers can have substantially less contact and still register nicely. The v1 FEXT is good to go for winkeys as is. The FSSK will require another run. Keep in mind though, your model M shell will need to be modified to take advantage. There is a reason the outer top shell isn't on in my pics. Everyone was just interested in the winkeys, so I showed the alignment

[alh84001]

Btw my worry about the bottom line was more because if you look at the unicomp model m which also has winkeys and even menu keys it looks like the following.. and I think they provide for that bottom line all 1.25u keys:

That is the old Unicomp layout, and they eventually abandoned it. I believe that any PCBs i$ makes will just slip a 1U sensing pad, between 1.5U positioned sensing pads for CTRL and ALT.

Edit: Oh, I misunderstood. You have an existing Unicomp that you want to convert.

[lot_lizard]

That is the old Unicomp layout, and they eventually abandoned it. I believe that any PCBs i$ makes will just slip a 1U sensing pad, between 1.5U positioned sensing pads for CTRL and ALT.

Exactly... Much more concisely worded than my fluff

[tentator]

what do you mean with need to modify my case to take advantage?
well yes I definitely WILL need to modifiy it quite a lot..
maybe you refer to the fact that on the top, where the connector to the xwhatsit should go, it's rather protruding out for unicomp?

[lot_lizard]

what do you mean with need to modify my case to take advantage?
well yes I definitely WILL need to modifiy it quite a lot..
maybe you refer to the fact that on the top, where the connector to the xwhatsit should go, it's rather protruding out for unicomp?

I didn't follow you were in a Unicomp case until after seeing alh84001's response. You should be fine. Model M's have a portion of the shell filling that winkey void. To use, a Model M top shell would need to be altered to make room for the key. The xWhatsit and PCB have no impact on any configuration

[Techno Trousers]

Fantastic work, lizard! It's so nice to see it all coming together.

I heard from idollar. He's still really busy, but will try to check in on this thread and let us know what he thinks about the logo idea.

Is it too early to talk about trading my v1 FSSK PCB to someone in exchange for a v2 when they are produced? I really want the windows keys, and don't mind modifying my case (or better yet getting a new metal case eventually). I know there are folks out there who don't want to modify their case, and/or don't care about the extra win keys...

[lot_lizard]

Is it too early to talk about trading my v1 FSSK PCB to someone in exchange for a v2 when they are produced? I really want the windows keys, and don't mind modifying my case (or better yet getting a new metal case eventually). I know there are folks out there who don't want to modify their case, and/or don't care about the extra win keys...

We are a bit away from v2 PCB and the group buy phase 1 I think. But I'm not sure what "bit" means just yet. The metal plates are set with the changes I will make and publish in the coming days. We want to take advantage of the modified mini xwhatsit that wcass made as a model M controller drop-in (still needs to be tested). It is based on a .1 inch pitch cable (standard ribbon cable... Think IDE). With it, we should change the PCB connector to match for v2 (reduced cost of assembly). I will finish receiving quotes over the coming days/weeks for flippers and barrels, and will finally have a ball park number to hand out.


Simple math says this is 200 +/- 35 assuming 50 boards. Higher the numbers, the lower the cost (back to the beauty of the non-profit group buy). When we do this, I am going to put together a cost analysis graph that shows lower cost milestones based on quantity. Those that REALLY want it will pay more initially, and receive refunds as others join. I could float this whole project if needed, but Instead will work out something where manufacturers receive guaranteed minimums (further reducing our cost), but also provide value on bulk orders. Again... The more, the cheaper

To be honest... I have ZERO interest in running this group buy other than seeing others enjoy it. We are in a unique space where there are MANY M's out there, and all could stand the upgrade to F switches (so our numbers will be reasonable I think). I can say this... There will be only one round (at least with my participation). Not a threat, but I have no time for reiterating the process (sorry if that comes off as an ass). I would instead prefer to focus on Phase 2 development. We will want Euro proxies (at least shipping... Maybe assembly) to reduce costs across the pond. If others are interested and WANT to run portions of the project (even shipping proxy) PM me. Regardless the path, I would always be here to help facilitate (success is important for me to see given the effort already)

[Techno Trousers]

Thanks for your thoughts, lizard, and for everything you're doing here. To tell the truth, I've kind of been holding my breath on this project, hoping it makes it to the group buy(s) stage. Once I got hold of an F122 and ANSIfied it a couple of years ago, I knew that my long search was over, that it was THE one key switch for me, and that a (yet to be started on at that time) FSSK/FEXT would be the Holy Grail of keyboards.

I think for myself, one FSSK (v2) and one FEXT insert from round one will be a great start as drop in replacements. Then maybe two additional complete FSSKs from phase two with metal cases and cherry cap adapters will set me up with keyboards for life. Not sure if I want to go all the way to the "floating" version you're working toward, or a more traditional case, but I do really want to see how that turns out as well.

I don't personally have interest in smaller than TKL keyboards, but the great thing about what you're doing here is that anyone with the aptitude could carry on from this work and create new 75%, 60%, or even 40% Model F keyboards. It's really nice to see this mini revival of the Model F going on in 2016.

[tentator]

This projects together (lotlozard+idollar) are just fantastic not to speak xwhatsit/wcass/DMA?
I could even think about help with assembly over the pond proxying since I've logistics to send from .it/.ch/.de and most interestingly help with a design of what would be my holy grail: 65%

[lot_lizard]

Question about the newest prototypes, how do the keys in the very center of the board feel? I know that when replacing the foam on one of the larger OG model F's that is pressure fit together, the keys in the center of the keyboard were always wobbly and more ping-ey. As this board is only being held together with perimeter screws, how well is the center being compressed, and how do those keys feel?

I have been typing on this now since mid-Saturday, and there is definitely a slight change in pitch between the key rows. Bending the top plate to be tighter definitely had positive impact (almost eliminating it), but since I now have sound OCD (thanks guys ), it is still slightly noticeable and consistent. The real issue is the F5-8 function keys being slightly more muted than the others. This is because of gauge of metal being thinner than it should be (which irritates me at my machine shop friends).

Steel gauge thickness:

• 20 gauge (what they used for my replacement): 0.0375 inches thick
• 18 gauge (what my original was, and the backplate is: .05 inches thick

As you can see, the original was ~33% thicker, which would have had significant impact on all of this testing (not only F5-8, but impact the row pitch variations as well, and quiet the whole board in general). The upside for testing though, it does make the differences more obvious, so we can fine tune the concept easier.

I am going to disassemble the board tonight to take out the winkeys so I can move the assembly into my 1395682 and finally get the top shell back on in a permanent state (further quieting). At that time, I am going to drill and tap the plates for the additional 7 screws I had in the middle of the plastic prototype (see picture below). It should give a nice way to tension areas of the board independently. These holes take advantage of preexisting ones in the v1 PCB. If nothing else, it should solve the F5-8 issue even on thin 20 gauge metal. I really think that one goes away completely with 18 gauge metal though (or very close). Also, I am going to double the thickness of the foam using the extra that Phosphorglow sent me to test impact.

By the way, I never mentioned weight... but the board (with outer shell) now WEIGHS 4.6 POUNDS!!! That's even with a 33% thinner top plate. It will likely be very close to 5 pounds in the final version. Definitely feels nice holding your hands


ORIGINAL plastic prototype with interior tension screws... Not the new metal one

[Techno Trousers]

5 pounds/2+ Kg sounds like a great, solid keyboard that will stay nicely planted under my flying fingers, and stand the test of time!

[lot_lizard]

Four things...

First... The screws between the number row and function row helped (did over a long lunch), but only at tightening up the sound of F5-8. The other rows are unaffected by any additional mid board tension. I will modify the plans to include the tensioning screws in these 7 spots, but plan on little benefit (I would treat them as optional) in an assembly.

Second... The doubled up foam made a WORLD of difference throughout the board. It genuinely feels like a typical F at this point. For the group buy, we will definitely go thicker than my first pass. I did measure the foam this time, and it is 1.5mm per sheet. I trimmed back the second sheet to only fall INSIDE the assembly housing (think on the barrels, but not the edges where they would have altered assembly thickness). I will need to ask Phosphorglow what this stuff is exactly (I know neoprene based, but there are loads of options there), but its use is proving promising. Or even mixed foams in two sheets of varying densities (moral... 2 sheets of different sizes is the key here)

Third... I am going to have the metal shop cut and process the SSK top plate again at 18 gauge. After testing the 20, and knowing there is little tuning, I want to know how much the 33% increase improves. At this point, I would be happy calling this an equal F switch (it really is), but I think we can make a better one... Why not right?!?

Fourth... For phase 2. Let me know your thoughts on the image below, as compared to the first. Keep in mind this is laser etched on stainless (if curved) / aluminum (if flat), so imagine that when formulating an opinion. If we go stainless, we would likely Cermark the metal with a laser, if aluminum more like a frosted surface. This is a horribly boring video, but explains Cermark well. It is reasonably cheap considering (we use at one of our plants), and produces a darker image that you would need to take a screwdriver to with pressure to alter. It's impressive. Expect the image to be approximately 4 (EDIT: 3.5) inches tall.

https://youtu.be/-MaN6Nzfr8Q

The image with "scales"...

image.png (87.61 KiB) Viewed 5760 times

[DMA]

Scales are a nice touch, indeed.

[pyrelink]

There has been tons of discussion on types of foam (or rubber, plastics, and O Rings) and thickness for Model F's. From my own finding and the general consensus, was that the thicker the foam you were able to get compressed, the firmer, and less ping-ey, the switches were. The primary issue was that the assembly's were force fit together, and needed to slide into place. Some materials were very difficult to slide on, and others were simply too thick to allow everything to fit into place. The fact that this is done with screws, would allow us to much more finely tune the type and thickness of the material, for the best feel. If I recall correctly, the best feeling I achieved was 2 sheets of generic craft store art foam, but that was very hard to compress.

Anyway, I guess my point is that I think the foam is a crucial way the feel can be improved upon, and the lack of a force fit design opens up the possibilities.

Oh and I definitely vote for the lizard with the scales.

[Ratfink]

If I had to choose between the two, I guess the scaled lizard would be better as long as there's a vector version of the scale pattern. If you want my complete and honest opinion though, I think they're both pretty cheesy.

[DMA]

If I had to choose between the two, I guess the scaled lizard would be better as long as there's a vector version of the scale pattern. If you want my complete and honest opinion though, I think they're both pretty cheesy.

Not cheesier than IBM logo!

[Ratfink]

If I had to choose between the two, I guess the scaled lizard would be better as long as there's a vector version of the scale pattern. If you want my complete and honest opinion though, I think they're both pretty cheesy.

Not cheesier than IBM logo!

Yeah, an IBM logo on something IBM didn't make would be pretty cheesy too. I'm not a graphic artist though, so I can't help much to keep this dairy-free.

[webwit]

Personally I'd always go for a duck.

[lot_lizard]

I'm not sure my opinion completely yet of the idea either. Trying some things out though. For sure the legs (size, shape, maybe placement) need some work, and the scale pattern would need to be dialed in. I have maybe an hour into thus far, and I'm by no stretch married to it. Tricky thing about laser etching is you really loose any sense of depth. I'd be up for a duck too, but thought would throw out some ideas. I'd like 3+ logos and then start a poll. If it was actually sexy, even jetting the pattern out and backlighting might be interesting. Would make the "floating board" even more dramatic?

Here's the ultimate irony. I don't even care about lizards. For those that don't know... A "lot lizard" is actually a truck stop hooker (think even worse than one on the curb). In America, we have large gas stations where over night truckers stop and sleep in their trucks (little cuddy cabins behind the seats). The "lot lizards" skank their way through the trucks knocking on doors trading deeds for cash. The sticker in my avatar is something a trucker would stick on his door to say "move along... Share your AIDS with someone else". It's actually the name of my fantasy football team because the first year I played my entire team was a bunch of thugs that had all been arrested or suspended at some point. Seemed fitting, and it has stuck.

Moral on the image, I'm up for anything. Just would like something unique, good, and relevant in some way that laser etches or could be LED backlit well. Help is always welcome

EDIT: Webwit... This is for your enjoyment https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-k-I8-8cyZk

[idollar]

Oh wow, a FSSK with winkeys! That's awesome. When can be buy the drop-in-replacement?
I have two FSSK PCB's ready to go.

Hate being the bearer of bad news, and I should have mentioned in the OP, but the winkeys don't have pads in the original FSSK. I realized after I was clacking away and wondered why they weren't registering. He has in the FEXT, and will have when we finally decide to group buy this stuff. I have all the quotes in except the plastics. I'm still waiting on my "dead beat" lab to give me the makeup of the flippin flipper

Hello, I may be temporarily back My life is currently very busy and does not let me lot of time for keyboards

Anyhow ... to make a long history short - the design of the FEXT and the FSSK are the same.
The design is made in layers, in such a way that one can add or remove the number pad, and therefore create, from the same design files, the FEXT and the FSSK. Thus, if the FEXT has winkeys, it means the the FSSK could have win keys. It is a matter of producing the PCB.

The long version comes here:

We have produced three versions of the PCB:

• v0.58 = prototype
  
  Green colour.
  
  This version does not have win keys.
  This version has two bugs with two traces that I could manually correct. The version, once corrected is fully working. Actually it is installed in my main keyboard at work and works without any problem.
• v1.0 - no win keys.
  
  Red colour.
  
  This version is the same as the 0.58 with the bugs corrected.
• v1.0b - With WIN keys.
  
  Red colour.
  
  This version is a redesign of the version v1.0 with win keys (XMIT keys).
  The matrix is different to allow the new keys.

Regarding the production, this is what has been actually manufactured:

• Order 1: prototype order with FSSK v0.53
• Order 2: production order of FSSK v1.0 & prototype order of FEXT v1.0b which I have sent to a couple of selected testers.

Note that in order 2, I ordered production units plus some prototypes. The reason is that I would not order 20+ PCBs without knowing that they are working. The risk is too high. Instead, I order a set of known-to-be-working PCBs and use the opportunity to test/prototype new versions.

Therefore and answering the question there is not physical version of the FSSK with win keys, but it could be easily produced.


The possible evolutions that I have in mind include:

• 1.- Broken spacebar
  2.- Different position of connection pads to allow an smaller design
  3.- Include the controller in the PCB (complicated as it shall be curved.

If there is interest, I will do it.

Cheers

[lot_lizard]

I'm attempting to run down the actual quotes for the metal plates (top barrel frame and backplate) of the assembly to get some harder numbers. I am starting a poll as soon I'm comfortable everywhere voiced their preference (evidently polls reset when options are modified, so we want the options known ahead of time). Here is an initial list of options that would be there. If you see something else that is missing you would like to see in the vote, let everyone know. The poll will allow multiple choices, and you can always change your mind

Top plate

• Black
• Indusrial SSK Blue (as in the prototypes)
• Red
• Green
• Yellow
• Orange
• Stainless steel (unfinished metal)
• Don't care, just make it subtle

Back plate

• Hot dipped in yellow chromate (similar to original F)
• Black
• Industrial Outer Shell (as in prototypes)
• Match my top plate color
• Stainless steel (unfinished metal)
• Don't care, just make it subtle

[Techno Trousers]

Those look like plenty of options to me, and my own preferences are listed.