Not Sure I'm Happy with Cherry MX...

[St0ckz]

MX style switches are realistically the only option for the vast majority in this hobby, like it or not, that's the current reality. Not to say they don't have their flaws but if we're being honest with ourselves that's it.

The resurgence in popularity of alps and their clones is a nice change but will it catch on with the "gaming keyboard" end of this hobby? Big doubt from me.

You could - if you really wanted - create something from the ground up that supports antiquated switches, all you would need is.. well a board to tear apart with suitable keycaps and someone that knows how to pcb and someone to design a case.
Then you could have your cake AND eat it.

To flat out say you don't think you'd ever be happy with a cherry mx board after only using an oem cherry mx green board is just wow.

i'd suggest better converting what you have or going to a keyboard meetup to try things out, rather than blanket judging based on a very slim view of two switches from a single manu, just saying.

[mattlach]

Also while old clicky are definitely better than anything on the market today, a model F (for example) is still a reverb nightmare (and don't even start with the floss mod, that is equivalent to rape)... so I don't know, maybe the click-clack feeling is just in our mind, a kind of nostalgia thing. Like retrogaming, you like it because it meant something to you, not because it has an actual value today.

Yeah, I know what you mean. This is very apparent from some of the comments I get on Youtube, as well - especially that zboard thing that I reviewed recently xD . And let's be honest, that's fine too - as you said, to each their own . Whatever makes one happy.

For sure, sound and feel are different axes on the switch spectrum. Some don't even give a toss about the sound, while for me it's very imporant (one of the reasons I like Alps so much). The Model F is especially polarising in the sound department - some love it, others hate it. I don't really hate it, but I like the M's sound better, myself. The feels though....

I for one like the feel of Model F's the best of any switch I've typed on. The sound has an odd frequency ping to it that I don't much care for though.

The Model M doesn't quite feel as nice, but it is close, and the tone-free percussive "clack" is perfect in the sound department...

...unless you happen to be in an open office environment, in which case it is WAY too loud.

[mattlach]

Wait, so you're basically saying that apart from everything that's better, they're by far the best linear switches you can find? :p

Without any arguments to support even that much? :p

To me this is pretty much a moot point.

I don't understand why linear switches from any maker exist at all. The whole concept of a non tactile switch is one that is absolutely garbage to type on.

[St0ckz]

Wait, so you're basically saying that apart from everything that's better, they're by far the best linear switches you can find? :p

Without any arguments to support even that much? :p

To me this is pretty much a moot point.

I don't understand why linear switches from any maker exist at all. The whole concept of a non tactile switch is one that is absolutely garbage to type on.

uhhh, can't tell if trolling or not but you got me to bite anyway.

"yeah well, that's just like, your opinion man"

[Myoth]

A great keyboard is not worth $300, and/or months, perhaps even years of searching, to YOU perhaps. To others, it clearly is. Again, this is not a factor of the switch itself, just the switch market (which is cheangeable - the switch design is not). For someone who is lazy, of course convenience will play a major factor. For myself, being a collector, it's almost irrelevant; again, it's where one's priorities lie.

Okay ? I mean yeah sure, from a collector point of view a 300usd keyboard is better than 300usd switches, but if the keyboard is bad (AT layout, so it is), the value only comes from the switches, so they're more or less the same thing, ain't no one going to spend 800usd on a docutech, though they will for their sweet SKCM Green

But to outright say Cherry MX linears are "far superior" to switch designs such as Hall effect, capacitive, optoelectric etc. which offer MANY advantages over contact-based switches such as Cherry MX from a cold-hard-fact-based technical perspective, without offering any arguments on what about the Cherry MX design makes them so much better that they so clearly surpass these other, technologically superior switches, just sounds like sheer lunacy :p .

Heh, don't make me say things I've never said, I didn't say they had a far superior switch design, I said they were better, they're not perfect.

their linears are far better than any other linear you can find

Spoiler:

So much for

And I'm the very LAST guy who'd go around nuancing every little detail people say; something that's probably obvious from the bluntness in my videos

But they're better than the switches you've mentionned because they're accessible, easily changeable, and they're great linears.

[stratokaster]

I had the same opinion ("all linear switches suck!") several years ago, but I gradually discovered that I sometimes prefer lightweight linear switches to anything else.

[mattlach]

uhhh, can't tell if trolling or not but you got me to bite anyway.

"yeah well, that's just like, your opinion man"

Not trolling at all.

I've always found at least some sort of tactile feel to be completely and utterly mandatory in any switch for me...

And while I know different people like different things, I've just never heard anyone say the like linear switches or defend them before, so I assumed everyone in the know about keyboards felt the same way :p

The only people I've ever heard express a like for linear switches have been silly competitive gamers. Never heard anyone say they like them for typing before.

[Hypersphere]

uhhh, can't tell if trolling or not but you got me to bite anyway.

"yeah well, that's just like, your opinion man"

Not trolling at all.

I've always found at least some sort of tactile feel to be completely and utterly mandatory in any switch for me...

And while I know different people like different things, I've just never heard anyone say the like linear switches or defend them before, so I assumed everyone in the know about keyboards felt the same way :p

The only people I've ever heard express a like for linear switches have been silly competitive gamers. Never heard anyone say they like them for typing before.

I think you'll find quite a few folks here and elsewhere who like linear switches for general typing. Examples of favored linear switches include SKCC green Alps (as in the "Pingmaster"), SKCL green or yellow Alps in various Zenith boards, Cherry vintage blacks (as in some Wyse keyboards) and Cherry silent red or silent black switches in various contemporary boards (to name a few).

Although Cherry mx and clones are among my least favorite switches, I have two 60% boards with Gateron yellow linear switches that I rather enjoy. Indeed, I'd rather type on these than on mx brown, clear, or blue switches.

[St0ckz]

uhhh, can't tell if trolling or not but you got me to bite anyway.

"yeah well, that's just like, your opinion man"

Not trolling at all.

I've always found at least some sort of tactile feel to be completely and utterly mandatory in any switch for me...

And while I know different people like different things, I've just never heard anyone say the like linear switches or defend them before, so I assumed everyone in the know about keyboards felt the same way :p

The only people I've ever heard express a like for linear switches have been silly competitive gamers. Never heard anyone say they like them for typing before.

Fair, in my case I almost exclusively type on linears. I find sharp tactiles like V2 Zealios or Outemu Skys harsh and jarring and I can't feel the bump of softer tactiles so there isn't much point in those.

It is true that linears get a gaming reputation especially with things like speed silvers... shudder
I like the clack of bottoming out on a switch and I'd rather not have a bump interrupting me half way through

[mattlach]

I like the clack of bottoming out on a switch and I'd rather not have a bump interrupting me half way through

Lol. I am a heavy typer. I bottom out HARD on anything I type on. Even my MX Greens, which supposedly have very high both actuation and bottoming out forces. :p

[Muirium]

Should have went for clears. Thoughtless, clod-handed, finger sores that they are. Perhaps you’d like them! Some do, mysteriously …

[St0ckz]

I like the clack of bottoming out on a switch and I'd rather not have a bump interrupting me half way through

Lol. I am a heavy typer. I bottom out HARD on anything I type on. Even my MX Greens, which supposedly have very high both actuation and bottoming out forces. :p

IDK I know a guy that dailys 180g greens, another that uses 120g and more than a few that run 100g and one that can type - albeit not for long - on APC greens, so yeno, there's that

[Chyros]

A great keyboard is not worth $300, and/or months, perhaps even years of searching, to YOU perhaps. To others, it clearly is. Again, this is not a factor of the switch itself, just the switch market (which is cheangeable - the switch design is not). For someone who is lazy, of course convenience will play a major factor. For myself, being a collector, it's almost irrelevant; again, it's where one's priorities lie.

Okay ? I mean yeah sure, from a collector point of view a 300usd keyboard is better than 300usd switches, but if the keyboard is bad (AT layout, so it is), the value only comes from the switches, so they're more or less the same thing, ain't no one going to spend 800usd on a docutech, though they will for their sweet SKCM Green

But to outright say Cherry MX linears are "far superior" to switch designs such as Hall effect, capacitive, optoelectric etc. which offer MANY advantages over contact-based switches such as Cherry MX from a cold-hard-fact-based technical perspective, without offering any arguments on what about the Cherry MX design makes them so much better that they so clearly surpass these other, technologically superior switches, just sounds like sheer lunacy :p .

Heh, don't make me say things I've never said, I didn't say they had a far superior switch design, I said they were better, they're not perfect.

their linears are far better than any other linear you can find

Spoiler:

So much for

And I'm the very LAST guy who'd go around nuancing every little detail people say; something that's probably obvious from the bluntness in my videos

But they're better than the switches you've mentionned because they're accessible, easily changeable, and they're great linears.

I wouldn't say I'm nuancing little details here. Your arguments make so little sense that I doubt it'd become more unclear if you read them backwards. It's like arguing with a pro-Leave voter.

I've already answered why availability has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the switches themselves. If by changeability you mean customisability, you could argue the same for that as it's all aftermarket anyway - besides there are lots of other switch designs you can customise, sometimes much more easily than Cherry MX. You're passing off side benefits (which are contestable in the first place) as qualities inherent to the MX switch and then completely ignoring factual, technical limitations that ARE.

So the only thing left is that without offering arguments about why despite the technical limitations of Cherry MX versus those of more high-tech designs, "they're great", so much so that it apparently doesn't actually need defending.

[Myoth]

I wouldn't say I'm nuancing little details here. Your arguments make so little sense that I doubt it'd become more unclear if you read them backwards. It's like arguing with a pro-Leave voter.

You're talking about switch design, when I'm talking about switches. I agree that Hall effect is a better switch design, but they're not better switches.

sometimes much more easily than Cherry MX.

I very much HIGHLY doubt this statement, but I'm all ears.

Though there is a reason why "reddit kids" mod their MX switches and not Alps, so again, I'm very curious about what you're referring to.

ISo the only thing left is that without offering arguments about why despite the technical limitations of Cherry MX versus those of more high-tech designs, "they're great", so much so that it apparently doesn't actually need defending.

They're great because you can use almost any keycaps available today; you can make any sort of layout with them since everything (sizing, space between switches, pcb footprint, etc etc etc) except them can be found. So you're only limit about them is your imagination really; even though people shit on clones, I think it's for the best they're made, trial and error, the more errors there are, the more important good switches are going to be, and people with close these and they'll get better etc etc

[Lbibass]

I wouldn't say I'm nuancing little details here. Your arguments make so little sense that I doubt it'd become more unclear if you read them backwards. It's like arguing with a pro-Leave voter.

You're talking about switch design, when I'm talking about switches. I agree that Hall effect is a better switch design, but they're not better switches.

sometimes much more easily than Cherry MX.

I very much HIGHLY doubt this statement, but I'm all ears.

Though there is a reason why "reddit kids" mod their MX switches and not Alps, so again, I'm very curious about what you're referring to.

ISo the only thing left is that without offering arguments about why despite the technical limitations of Cherry MX versus those of more high-tech designs, "they're great", so much so that it apparently doesn't actually need defending.

They're great because you can use almost any keycaps available today; you can make any sort of layout with them since everything (sizing, space between switches, pcb footprint, etc etc etc) except them can be found. So you're only limit about them is your imagination really; even though people shit on clones, I think it's for the best they're made, trial and error, the more errors there are, the more important good switches are going to be, and people with close these and they'll get better etc etc

From what I can tell, you seem to be a troll, but I will still try and debate with you about this. The reason that MX switches seem to be modded so much more is that they are more popular. Switches that use the MX architecture, for lack of a better word, are still being released and produced. ALPS, on the other hand, are much harder to mod, or people would rather not because they are harder to find, more expensive, and generally less popular than MX designs. The only modern ALPS architecture switches are Hua-Jie, Matias, and some datacomp clones, most of which are pretty disliked. If there were someone who could come up with the capital to recreate alps switchplates and manage to fit them in an MX footprint, ALPS, and switches similar to ALPS would be significantly more popular. Not many boards support ALPS, so they are going to be more niche, and you're gonna see fewer people modding them. ALPS switches are generally smoother and provide what is generally assumed to be a better form of tactility. However, you have to find them when they are new to have the best experience, and that is SIGNIFICANTLY harder and exponentially more expensive than just going onto Novelkeys or arrow and grabbing some Cherry MX architecture switches.

TLDR;

MX switches are modded more often and more available because of market trends and the lack of high-quality alternative architectures. If someone were able to reproduce first gen alps with MX stems and footprints, you would see ALPS and similar switches become significantly more popular.

[Slom]

such as Hall effect

Don't know mate, mx switches actually bring able to be used on a modern computer is a pretty nice perk

I agree, but that has nothing to do with the actual switches.

It is a moot anyway bc/ most Hall Effect switches are scratchy suckers anyway, in my experience

[mattlach]

Should have went for clears. Thoughtless, clod-handed, finger sores that they are. Perhaps you’d like them! Some do, mysteriously …

I actually got two, one with MX Greens for home, and one with Tactile Clears for work. I have also ordered some o-rings for the Clears to silence it for work. I really wanted tactile greys though, but I couldn't find any boards with them.

My thought process was that I likely would be less happy with them than the Greens compared to my Model M's, but I needed the silence, and compared to the awful Logitech k520 they gave me at work, with it's terrible low profile rubber domes, ANYTHING must be an improvement.

In retrospect, maybe I would have been better off sampling a set of Topre Realforce switches for work, as they usually seem well liked and seem reasonably quiet... Hindsight and all that.

Maybe I can pick up a cheap Topre board to test just to see if I like it. I don't want to hoard keyboards I'm not going to use though.

[mattlach]

Maybe I can pick up a cheap Topre board to test just to see if I like it. I don't want to hoard keyboards I'm not going to use though.

A quick search for Topre boards suggests that they are anything but cheap though.

I guess I will have to postpone experiencing the oneness with cup rubber...

[Myoth]

From what I can tell, you seem to be a troll

Ha, nice one, I like a switch type, I try to defend it and I'm now called a troll, nice

The reason that MX switches seem to be modded so much more is that they are more popular. Switches that use the MX architecture, for lack of a better word, are still being released and produced. ALPS, on the other hand, are much harder to mod, or people would rather not because they are harder to find, more expensive, and generally less popular than MX designs.

Or because Alps are inherently better ? You don't mod Alps because they're good enough as is, and if you don't like one Alps, then there is one you'll like. They're certainly not harder to mod, you open them as easily as you open MX.

Actually, I take that back, they're easier to mod since you can have them soldered in the board and you still can mod them.

If there were someone who could come up with the capital to recreate alps switchplates and manage to fit them in an MX footprint, ALPS, and switches similar to ALPS would be significantly more popular.

That's an interesting assumption, I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with it.

Not many boards support ALPS, so they are going to be more niche, and you're gonna see fewer people modding them. ALPS switches are generally smoother and provide what is generally assumed to be a better form of tactility. However, you have to find them when they are new to have the best experience, and that is SIGNIFICANTLY harder and exponentially more expensive than just going onto Novelkeys or arrow and grabbing some Cherry MX architecture switches.

okay ? I know what Alps are my dude, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, Alps people will make Alps build niche or not, and it's actually better like that, the parts are hard to find, but it's infinitely more satisfying to finish your custom with Alps than your custom with MX. And about the condition well, it's been debunked a few times that not only NIB feels good.

[Muirium]

Maybe I can pick up a cheap Topre board to test just to see if I like it. I don't want to hoard keyboards I'm not going to use though.

A quick search for Topre boards suggests that they are anything but cheap though.

I guess I will have to postpone experiencing the oneness with cup rubber...

Topre is one of those things everyone seems to have to take the long road to reach. It’s the price tag, natch. But as the cliche goes: you spend as much on other keyboards first just to find where you should have started all along.

They’re not ideal, but they’re the closest to it, especially of things still made today. With the one huge advantage over pipe dreams: Realforce exists!

Playing your keyboard troll for a moment, let me perch here on your shoulder and tell you to get one of those pricey Ellipse Model Fs as well. Bet they’re pretty tasty too.

[Myoth]

IBM Beamspring > IBM Model F > IBM Model M >> All Cherry MX, Alps and Topre > Rubber Dome & Scissor Switches.

Maybe I can pick up a cheap Topre board to test just to see if I like it. I don't want to hoard keyboards I'm not going to use though.

>Topre baaaaad
>maybe I should try Topre just to see if I like it

typical IBM fanboy

[mattlach]

IBM Beamspring > IBM Model F > IBM Model M >> All Cherry MX, Alps and Topre > Rubber Dome & Scissor Switches.

Maybe I can pick up a cheap Topre board to test just to see if I like it. I don't want to hoard keyboards I'm not going to use though.

>Topre baaaaad
>maybe I should try Topre just to see if I like it

typical IBM fanboy

Well, I wouldn't get them for home. I probably wouldnt be happy with them there, considering what I am used to.

With the noise volume requirement at work - however - I figured maybe that wouldnt be a good application. I still don't think that I'll really like them, but I'll certainly like them more than rubber domes, and I might like them more than MX clears with O-rings, which Will be my work solution starting tomorrow.

Hindsight being 20-20, I already have a little Cherry MX experience. If I was going to fumble in the dark anyway, it might have been a good idea to try something different, even if it only winds up confirming what I suspect, that is I won't like them.

[Myoth]

There are Topre domes heavier than MX greens and Buckling Springs, but how would you know since you shit on Topre without even having tried them

Search up BKE redux heavy or BKE redux extreme They're not clicking, but they're damn heavy

[Chyros]

I wouldn't say I'm nuancing little details here. Your arguments make so little sense that I doubt it'd become more unclear if you read them backwards. It's like arguing with a pro-Leave voter.

You're talking about switch design, when I'm talking about switches. I agree that Hall effect is a better switch design, but they're not better switches.

Again, all the advantages you're citing is simply a factor of the market. They have nothing to do with the switches themselves.

sometimes much more easily than Cherry MX.

I very much HIGHLY doubt this statement, but I'm all ears.

Though there is a reason why "reddit kids" mod their MX switches and not Alps, so again, I'm very curious about what you're referring to.

Well, if you want Alps as an example; Cherry MX (or at least the plate-mount ones) need to be desoldered and unclipped before they can be opened at all. Even PCB-mount ones (for what reason someone would want that I don't know, but whatever) need a special tool to be opened. Alps switches conversely can be easily opened with something as simple as toothpicks, and no desoldering is needed. A significant advantage.

Alps also boast substantial changability between linear, tactile and clicky. This goes as far as not even needing separate parts in many cases. Tactile SKCM can be changed to linear OR clicky without even needing actual linear or clicky parts from other switches, for example.

Furthermore, the tactile/click leaf on Alps switches is MUCH more amenable to manual modding than the tactile notch on Cherry MX switches. Want you switches to be more tactile? No problem, use a toothpick and bend the teeth out a little bit more. It's reversible, even.

Spring weight not good? Just like MX, there's a wide range of Alps springs available.

So as you see, Alps switches are highly customisable, and much more easily so than Cherry MX. If you're not aware of people modding Alps switches, that's just you not knowing what's happening but pretending to anyway. My Alps linearisation video is at 627k views atm.

ISo the only thing left is that without offering arguments about why despite the technical limitations of Cherry MX versus those of more high-tech designs, "they're great", so much so that it apparently doesn't actually need defending.

They're great because you can use almost any keycaps available today; you can make any sort of layout with them since everything (sizing, space between switches, pcb footprint, etc etc etc) except them can be found. So you're only limit about them is your imagination really; even though people shit on clones, I think it's for the best they're made, trial and error, the more errors there are, the more important good switches are going to be, and people with close these and they'll get better etc etc

Again, and as pointed out by other people now too, this has nothing to do whatsoever with the switches, just with the people buying them. If your statement held any truth, it would've been true in 1985 as well, but this is not the case. Virtually all the products you mention aren't even made by Cherry.

[mattlach]

>Topre baaaaad

Besides, I don't think I characterized them as bad, necessarily. I did a ton of reading, and watching videos of typing samples about them when I was trying to decide what to go with. This was the best I could do without spending money and actually buying one, and the conclusion I came to was that they seemed a bit squishy, and lacking that sharp mechanical "clack" I crave.

These are just best guesses from online research though. Nothing beats feeling something in person.

[Myoth]

I wouldn't say I'm nuancing little details here. Your arguments make so little sense that I doubt it'd become more unclear if you read them backwards. It's like arguing with a pro-Leave voter.

You're talking about switch design, when I'm talking about switches. I agree that Hall effect is a better switch design, but they're not better switches.

Again, all the advantages you're citing is simply a factor of the market. They have nothing to do with the switches themselves

What?

Well, if you want Alps as an example; Cherry MX (or at least the plate-mount ones) need to be desoldered and unclipped before they can be opened at all. Even PCB-mount ones (for what reason someone would want that I don't know, but whatever) need a special tool to be opened. Alps switches conversely can be easily opened with something as simple as toothpicks, and no desoldering is needed. A significant advantage.

Alps also boast substantial changability between linear, tactile and clicky. This goes as far as not even needing separate parts in many cases. Tactile SKCM can be changed to linear OR clicky without even needing actual linear or clicky parts from other switches, for example.

Furthermore, the tactile/click leaf on Alps switches is MUCH more amenable to manual modding than the tactile notch on Cherry MX switches. Want you switches to be more tactile? No problem, use a toothpick and bend the teeth out a little bit more. It's reversible, even.

Spring weight not good? Just like MX, there's a wide range of Alps springs available.

So as you see, Alps switches are highly customisable, and much more easily so than Cherry MX. If you're not aware of people modding Alps switches, that's just you not knowing what's happening but pretending to anyway. My Alps linearisation video is at 627k views atm.

Okay fair, you got me at the opening Alps up, but the rest is just bollocks, apart from Cream/White Dampened and Black, are there any other Alps switch people mod ? Didn't think so. Alps have the potential to be AS customisable, but they're not, in comparison to MX, Alps is stuck in 2012 when all the Koreans would spring swap MX Black with Blue or Red springs because there wasn't any better.

Very moddable when you can only make tactiles more tactile, clickies more tactile and tactiles/clickies linear. Those are the reversible mods, when in MX you can reverse everything you've done to any point. Sure, you can't make MX Blue linear by taking the jacket off, but eh.

Not to mention that Alps springs are weird in the way where very tactile Alps don't have a heavy spring even though they feel heavy. Last time I checked, changing the springs made them almost worthless, and I'm not talking about Cream dampened or whatever, I'm talking about tactile Browns.

Even PCB-mount ones (for what reason someone would want that I don't know, but whatever) need a special tool to be opened.

PCB mounted linears are exceptionally good, the "muh keyboard can survive the end of the world XDDD" is a big ass meme, G80s are perfectly fine the way they are, they don't need plates. And the special tool part isn't even true, I use 2 screwdrivers to open mine, talk about special...

Again, and as pointed out by other people now too, this has nothing to do whatsoever with the switches, just with the people buying them. If your statement held any truth, it would've been true in 1985 as well, but this is not the case. Virtually all the products you mention aren't even made by Cherry.

So you're saying a switch is only defined by itself? That's probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard, I wonder why you review keyboards and not single switches then I mean, after all, keycaps don't define the switch, neither does the plate (if there is one), the case ? Pfft useless

... wait what do you mean switch can sound different in certain keyboards ? So there are different version of each switch for each chassis ??

Jokes aside, of course it has to do with the switch, a switch isn't only defined by itself, look at any old switch, are they bad because they're rendered useless today ? Yes and no, they're still good because of the keyboards they were in, but they're bad switches as they don't hold anything against everything modern. And it can't be true in 1985 because Cherry MX wasn't used by enthusiasts.



You won't budge and I won't either, so this talk seems rather redundant, you're right from your POV and I'm right from my POV, everyone's happy

[Myoth]

>Topre baaaaad

Besides, I don't think I characterized them as bad, necessarily.

I mean you placed them after Mem BS, that's an insult in itself

[Hypersphere]

Maybe I can pick up a cheap Topre board to test just to see if I like it. I don't want to hoard keyboards I'm not going to use though.

A quick search for Topre boards suggests that they are anything but cheap though.

I guess I will have to postpone experiencing the oneness with cup rubber...

Topre is one of those things everyone seems to have to take the long road to reach. It’s the price tag, natch. But as the cliche goes: you spend as much on other keyboards first just to find where you should have started all along.

They’re not ideal, but they’re the closest to it, especially of things still made today. With the one huge advantage over pipe dreams: Realforce exists!

Playing your keyboard troll for a moment, let me perch here on your shoulder and tell you to get one of those pricey Ellipse Model Fs as well. Bet they’re pretty tasty too.

Mu, you've summarized my own journey quite well. For me, there were additional hurdles to jump. It was not only arriving at Topre, because my advertised criteria kept suggesting to everyone but me that I really wanted not only Topre, but 60%. And that meant HHKB. I was reluctant for at least two reasons: (1) erroneously thinking I needed dedicated arrow keys; and (2) erroneously thinking I could never become accustomed to the HHKB placement of Backspace and Ctrl.

Indeed, you perched on my shoulder and whispered HHKB in my ear, like Robin Williams in "The Dead Poet's Society" whispering to his students, "carpe ...."

Finally, I took the plunge. I was pleasantly shocked to discover that I immediately loved everything about the HHKB -- Topre switches, 60% form factor, and every aspect of the layout. Now, nothing but a HHKB layout will do. I have to remap all my keyboards to this configuration.

Of course, I was not finished. Like a form of OCD, I have to keep trying other keyboards -- continually checking to be sure that I actually do prefer HHKB to everything else. But it's more than that. Variety for spice and all that.

[mattlach]

I mean you placed them after Mem BS, that's an insult in itself

You mean Model M's, the gold standard of switches that aren't made of unobtanium (like Model F's and Beam springs)

Of course they were never going to beat the Model M.

My goal is still to find something else that gives me more modern features, while sacrificing as little as possible of the near perfect feel of the Model M as possible.

Thus far I have failed. Everything Cherry MX I have tried (browns, blues, greens and clears) are not it, they sacrifice way too much feel. As do all Alps switches I've tested (mostly vintage blacks and salmons) and everything I've read about Topre suggest they don't maintain that near perfect feel either...

Guess I'm going to have to make my own or deal with a compromise :p

[Hypersphere]

I was happy with my Model M switches until refurbishing my first Model F XT (which I got for $19). Now the Model M feels scratchy. Of course, the native XT layout leaves much to be desired for many folks.

Compromise is a four-lettered word in my book.

Black Alps have arguably the worst feel of any Alps switch.

I have Topre-switch boards purchased four years ago; they still feel fine to me.

Tactile or tactile-clicky Alps are great fun, but the originals are found mostly in full-size vintage boards. I have one 60% custom with blue Alps, but the aluminum case and stainless steel plate dull the wonderful sound that blue Alps can produce when housed in the right chassis. I need to make a custom Alps board using my own customized plate and case -- it's on my very long "to do" list.