Seeking Soarer - evidence thread

[shallot]

Not funny I didn't laugh. Your joke is so bad I would have preferred the joke went over my head and you gave up re-telling me the joke. To be honest this is a horrid attempt at trying to get a laugh out of me. Not a chuckle, not a hehe, not even a subtle burst of air out of my esophagus. Science says before you laugh your brain preps your face muscles but I didn't even feel the slightest twitch. 0/10 this joke is so bad I cannot believe anyone legally allowed you to be creative at all. The amount of brain power you must have put into that joke has the potential to power every house on Earth. Get a personality and learn how to make jokes, read a book. I'm not saying this to be funny I genuinely mean it on how this is just bottom barrel embarrassment at comedy. You've single handedly killed humor and every comedic act on the planet. I'm so disappointed that society has failed as a whole in being able to teach you how to be funny. Honestly if I put in all my power and time to try and make your joke funny it would require Einstein himself to build a device to strap me into so I can be connected to the energy of a billion stars to do it, and even then all that joke would get from people is a subtle scuff. You're lucky I still have the slightest of empathy for you after telling that joke otherwise I would have committed every war crime in the book just to prevent you from attempting any humor ever again. We should put that joke in text books so future generations can be wary of becoming such an absolute comedic failure. Im disappointed, hurt, and outright offended that my precious time has been wasted in my brain understanding that joke. In the time that took I was planning on helping kids who have been orphaned, but because of that you've waisted my time explaining the obscene integrity of your terrible attempt at comedy. Now those kids are suffering without meals and there's nobody to blame but you.

[melka]

yes yes, you guys know hacker and developer culture better than anyone else in this thread, good to know... so how is the legal battle over owning ideas going on ?

[shallot]

omg

[shallot]

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[mode1ace]

No, Soarer doesn't get off the hook for bad practice because it was a beta. Correct action is to attach a grant of rights to your first commit, so people looking at the code won't instantly be in a legally compromised position.

If this place weren't a weird little tidepool disconnected from hacker culture you would already have known this.

How to win friends and influence people

Soarer doesn't owe you shit.

[HuBandiT]

Indeed. Let me add a few requests for Soarer 2.0:

• NeXT protocol support
• ADB protocol support
• SUN protocol support
• See the pattern?
• We need active open source development for this
• It's not multiple projects
• It's one product!

Man, having one multi-port, intelligently programmable classic protocol converter under my desk? Nirvana!

This doesn't seem all that difficult if you slice your problem right and make it a distributed effort among several groups/individuals. Here is a quick outline:

• Layer 1, electrical interface:
  • If you are a keyboard controller, develop circuitry to sense keys (mechanical, capacitive, light-based, etc. – it's all the same beyond this layer)
  • if you are a protocol converter, gather the electrical specs of all the protocols you want to support, and develop electrical circuitry to interface to them correctly; these will be relatively simple; recruit some EEs, have them whip up the collective design; design modularly with daughterboards if you are fancy (or you may find the electricals are similar enough that one or two solutions could work for all, aside from physical connectors); design each of your pins to be bidirectional (can "talk" as well as "listen") - to be able to function as a logic analyzer; see below.
• Layer 2, decoding electrical signals into raw digital data:
  • I assume most of these protocols will be digital, and most serial in one direction (simplex), or both directions (one wire each direction - full duplex), or both directions sharing the same wire and taking turns talking back and forth - half-duplex), with or without clock signal(s) for one or both directions. maybe a separate reset signal.
  • use your listening capability and an Y cable (or double connectors) to sniff out and log the exchange between original equipment. develop a controller mode that allows normal users to initiate this mode to perform the captures, and they can then ship the captured traffic off to developers. for the most simplified, the mode could be triggered by the user pressing a dedicated pushbutton on the controller after having opened a text editor and placing the cursor into it, and then the controller would start outputting the logic capture encoded as keypresses that would register as gibberish of text typed into the text editor; (as there will be relatively few actual signal transitions per keypress on the original keyboard, and only about 3-8 wires, so it won't be a long text; can easily be posted in a forum post) -- embedded developers can develop this capture mode
  • parallel to this, develop a cross-platform GUI (most recommended in JavaScript running under a browser), that will allow visual analysis and decoding of the protocol; add parsing of low-cost logic analyzer output files as well for bootstrapping (so that people can start capturing protocols using logic analyzers right away, even before there is a first prototype of the keyboard converter available) -- JavaScript developers can do this
  • based on analysis of the protocols, develop a basic serial protocol alphabet/vocabulary (a set of elementary "dance steps") and parameters that are versatile enough to faithfully encode and reproduce all known protocols that are to be supported (and with good engineering sense, also make it more general to add some future proofing); then develop a compact textual representation for this language (human-readable is a mild advantage, but the main usage will be as an export format from the protocol analyzer) -- EEs and (embedded) developers can do this; the language will describe the protocol in a hardware-independent way, e.g. it will use absolute units of time, and not clock cycles, it will use signals/wires named based on the protocol instead of arbitrary pin numbers.
  • develop an embedded interpreter/compiler, that can "dance with" the original keyboard by interpreting these descriptions real-time in terms of the actual hardware (e.g. translating absolute time descriptions into clock cycles, signal names into pins); this won't be hard since you will only have at most on the order of a few hundred (but probably on a few dozen) signal transitions per second. -- (embedded) developers can do this; this development only needs to be done only once for the entire project
  • now you have the ability to converse with your original keyboard on its raw protocol level
• Layer 3: keyboard event decoding
  • gather all keyboards and other peripherals you wish to support (mice, card readers, whathaveyou) and develop a language that can describe all meaningful events and messages these can emit or consume; since the end goal is USB output, you might gather wisdom by looking at the USB HID specification or anywhere else you can find meaningful inspiration from. this will be the internal vocabulary the keyboard controller will use log events emitted by the original keyboard.
  • this is where you take your raw protocol data (bytes/frames) and interpret them into conceptually meaningful events. if your original keyboard emits two scancodes for the keydown event of a key on the numeric pad, then you interpret them into one event. if your original keyboard has auto key-repeat, then this is where you ignore repeated key events; etc. basically what you want is to as purely capture the gestures the user makes as possible.
• Layer 4: macros
  • gather all wisdom from previous projects, and come up with a set of requirements that satisfies all (or most) needs
  • put a scripting language inside your keyboard controller; Pawn or Lua come to mind.
  • the macro/scripting environment should strongly encourage reusability, composability, shareability, tweakability by end users; for the latter, create a simplified language-within-a-language if needed
  • since you are Turing-complete, only the sky is the limit in complexity
• Layer 5: configuration UI
  various presentation/interaction options:
  • command line interface or Text-based user interface optionally with mouse integration
  • used with either a serial terminal program over USB serial port (CDC) emulation, or telnet over USB Ethernet emulation
  • or HTTP/JavaScript UI over USB Ethernet (if your hardware platform provides TCP/IP already)
  • nowadays I would say go with TCP/IP, because then you can offload the UI development effort (most likely to keep getting user requests) from your embedded developers to separate (JavaScript/Frontend) developers
  features:
  • at a minimum, transferring the macro scripts into (upload) and out of (backup) the keyboard controller
  • manage protocols: multiple original keyboard protocol descriptions can be uploaded into the controller at the same time; the user can switch between them; where electrically feasible, the controller could auto-detect and auto-switch protocols on startup, or even hotplug; and given separate connectors and electricals it would even be possible to connect multiple keyboards at the same time, and use them in parallel, either as one virtual merged keyboard, or individual keyboards (much like USB allows it)
  • if you feel fancy, add an IDE into the JS UI to allow macro development right on the controller (instead of having to re-upload each and every change)
  • firmware update (or do it with USB DFU)
  • configure keyboard layout and key names and triggered actions
    • the user draws their keyboard layout on the screen, then
    • assigns physical keys on the original keyboard by pressing an actual key on the original keyboard for the controller to sense, and then clicking the corresponding key onscreen to assign
    • enters the key's label (displayed on the layout as visual aid) and gives it an internal identifier (name) to be used in macros
    • assign the action of the key: say either simply an USB HID key code, or a macro invocation, etc.
    • similarly with LEDs, if any.
  • when used as a keyboard controller (as in sensing keys yourself - and not as a converter, as mostly talked about above):
    • the user, after soldering their unknown mechanical keyswitch matrix wires pretty much arbitrarily to key matrix pins on the controller board, can switch the controller to matrix discover mode: as the user presses individual keys on the keyboard during the layout assignment step above, the controller automatically determines rows and columns (and polarity if there are diodes), and per-key debounce parameters
    • configure your scanning speed/frequency, debouncing parameters, etc.
    • if you do analogue sensing (e.g. capacitive), then you can also configure your sensing levels/thresholds/compensation/other necessary magic here
• Layer 6: USB HID messages
  • all your 6KRO/boot mode/BIOS mode/NKRO compatibility issues come here; it only has to be done once for the entire project
• Layer 7: USB interface to host
  • this is where you interface with the USB block of your chosen hardware platform (microcontroller) to actually send out the final, sliced and diced keystrokes
  • provide the communication channel (e.g. USB serial or USB Ethernet) for the configuration UI

Organized like this, many of these can be broken out and worked separately by different groups/developers – which saves considerable effort when compared to the current situation where every single project has to individually wrestle with each of these issues (electricals, protocol decoding, USB, macros, configuration/UI, etc.).

I think this would effortlessly (pun intended) fit into a $10-15 USD microcontroller today.

Just my two cents.

[Slom]

If this place weren't a weird little tidepool disconnected from hacker culture [...]

If you are "hacker culture" ... I am glad to be disconnected from it

If hacker culture is tinkering with stuff, finding and sharing workarounds and clever solutions to technical problems, and having fun while doing this, then I don't see how this place is not part of hacker culture.

This is hobby, not business, for most of us.

[shallot]

Good artists copy, great artists steal.

[shallot]

It's better to be a pirate than to join the Navy.

[shallot]

and one quote from our lord and saviour Steve Jobs just for esr:

A lot of people in our industry haven't had very diverse experiences. So they don't have enough dots to connect, and they end up with very linear solutions without a broad perspective on the problem. The broader one's understanding of the human experience, the better design we will have.

[esr]

Also, I think you have a serious misunderstanding of what the word hacker means.

Oh, that is impossibly funny.

Would someone like to explain things to this guy? I mean, I could do it, but it will be more amusing (and probably more effective) if somebody else wields the cluebat.

[depletedvespene]

Also, I think you have a serious misunderstanding of what the word hacker means.

Oh, that is impossibly funny.

Would someone like explain things to this guy? I mean, I could do it, but it will be more amusing (and probably more effective) if somebody else wields the cluebat.

Oh, I was waiting for YOU to reply to Mr. 3.5-neurons over his comment. I also agree that is impossibly funny (once you shove aside all the vitriol).

[shallot]

yeah, just proves how irrelevant hacker culture is. nobody knows or cares about you lol

[shallot]

Chalmers: Well, Seymour, I made it, despite your directions.
Skinner: Ah, Superintendent Chalmers, welcome. I hope you're prepared for an unforgettable luncheon!
Chalmers: Yeah.
[Skinner runs to the kitchen, only to find his roast is burnt and gasps in horror]
Skinner: Oh, egads! My roast is ruined! But what if I were to purchase fast food and disguise it as my own cooking? [chuckles] Delightfully devilish, Seymour.
[He begins to climb through the window, but Chalmers enters the kitchen. The theme song then plays]
Chalmers: SEYMOUR!
Skinner: Superintendent! I was just...uh---just stretching my calves on the windowsill. Isometric exercise! Care to join me?
Chalmers: Why is there smoke coming out of your oven, Seymour?
Skinner: Uh... ooh! That isn't smoke, it's steam! Steam from the steamed clams we're having. Mmmm, steamed clams!
[Once Chalmers leaves the kitchen, Skinner runs across to Krusty Burger and buys burgers to replace his burnt roast. He enters the dining room with them.]
Skinner: Superintendent, I hope you're ready for some mouthwatering hamburgers.
Chalmers: I thought we were having steamed clams.
Skinner: Oh no, I said 'steamed hams'. That's what I call hamburgers.
Chalmers: You call hamburgers 'steamed hams'?
Skinner: Yes! It's a regional dialect.
Chalmers: Uh-huh? What region?
Skinner: Uh...upstate New York.
Chalmers: Really? Well I'm from Utica and I've never heard anyone use the phrase 'steamed hams'.
Skinner: Oh, not in Utica, no. It's an Albany expression.
Chalmers: I see.
[Chalmers takes a bite out of a burger and chews it a little, while Skinner sips his drink.]
Chalmers:You know, these hamburgers are quite similar to the ones they have at Krusty Burger.
Skinner: Hohoho, no! Patented Skinner Burgers. Old family recipe!
Chalmers: For steamed hams?
Skinner: Yes.
Chalmers: Yes, and you call them steamed hams, despite the fact they are obviously grilled.
Skinner: Y- Uh.. you know, the... One thing I should... excuse me for one second.
Chalmers: Of course.
[Skinner enters and leaves the kitchen swiftly upon seeing it is now on fire]
Skinner: [yawn] Well, that was wonderful. A good time was had by all. I'm pooped.
Chalmers: Yes, I should be--good lord, what is happening in there?!
Skinner: Aurora Borealis?
Chalmers: Ah- Aurora Borealis!? At this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localized entirely within your kitchen!?
Skinner: Yes.
Chalmers: ...May I see it?
Skinner: ...No.
[They exit the house as the kitchen fire grows larger.]
Agnes: Seymour! The house is on fire!
Skinner: No, mother, it's just the Northern Lights.
Chalmers: Well, Seymour, you are an odd fellow, but I must say... you steam a good ham.
[As Chalmers begins heading home, Agnes screams for help, causing Chalmers to look back towards the house. Skinner gives him a thumbs up and a fake smile, causing him to keep walking away. Once Chalmers is out of sight, Skinner rushes back into the house to deal with the fire.]
Agnes: Help! HELP!!!

[ifohancroft]

You could share your hex file with someone who has a working Soarer’s converter.

(Not me though. I’m away from keyboard this weekend.)

That's a great idea! Thanks! As always, I didn't think of the most obvious idea.

Eric, would you mind if I sent you a compiled binary I compiled from antonizoon's code for the Teensy 2, for testing and comparison if it works the same way Soarer's own binary does?

[lis0r]

Would someone like to explain things to this guy? I mean, I could do it, but it will be more amusing (and probably more effective) if somebody else wields the cluebat.

ESR is the original toxic open source hacker. Every time you come across an obnoxious guy on an open source project, he's copying the bad attitude of this archetype.

[esr]

If hacker culture is tinkering with stuff, finding and sharing workarounds and clever solutions to technical problems, and having fun while doing this, then I don't see how this place is not part of hacker culture.

Serious answer: This crew has some of the aspirations of hacker culture. Some of the mindset. You put your finger on that.

What a lot of you are lacking is the knowledge, the praxis, developed over the last 40 years by the hacker subculture that gave you Linux and the modern Internet. And the reason that matters is because those customs are functional. They keep you out of trouble of the kind Soarer's carelessnes about licenses and source distribution has dropped you into.

[esr]

Eric, would you mind if I sent you a compiled binary I compiled from antonizoon's code for the Teensy 2, for testing and comparison if it works the same way Soarer's own binary does?

Go right ahead. You'll have to explain to me how to load it into my converter, though. I don't know those steps.

[shallot]

>proclaims to be super hack0r
>can't flash a microcontroller, or use google/search engine of choice apparently

[Redmaus]

I've been very stern in making it clear that we can't make assumptions regarding Soarer's state (and mindset), so I'll have to make a point here: we don't know if he "did" or "did not" follow all good practices — regarding sofware development, the code running in Soarer's converter is pretty much an "open beta" (with a version number that could be described as 0.999 RC 1, where everything is done but you're doing an extra final step before release, just in case) that never DID get to the "release 1.0" status, because Soarer didn't actually formalize that... for whatever reason it may have been.

No, Soarer doesn't get off the hook for bad practice because it was a beta. Correct action is to attach a grant of rights to your first commit, so people looking at the code won't instantly be in a legally compromised position.

If this place weren't a weird little tidepool disconnected from hacker culture you would already have known this.

OK so this is my first time looking at this thread today and I'm amazed it's gotten so many replies since then, so let me go ahead and explain something.

The weird little tidepool is where you come from. No software that people use daily is something that you wrote. Your ego and overinflated sense of importance is not something that everyone shares. No one that isn't a complete social outcast gives a flying fuck about "hacker culture".

Here on deskthority we like keyboards, and we also know that most people don't care at all about keyboards. It's something that we as a forum appreciate and have created a community from. We at the same time realize that keyboards are not some life and death issue and other people from other communities have no reason to see us as an authority figure. This is something you seem to have trouble with. No one outside your niche linux hacker group is going to look up to you as some sort of god.

Hacker culture did not give us the internet and linux, very smart and talented people did.

1608704593639.jpg (47.15 KiB) Viewed 25996 times

Pic related is the reaction people would have if you were acting so high and mighty IRL.

[ifohancroft]

Eric, would you mind if I sent you a compiled binary I compiled from antonizoon's code for the Teensy 2, for testing and comparison if it works the same way Soarer's own binary does?

Go right ahead. You'll have to explain to me how to load it into my converter, though. I don't know those steps.

Thank you and sure!

I will send it to you when I get on my PC later.

[esr]

This doesn't seem all that difficult if you slice your problem right and make it a distributed effort among several groups/individuals. Here is a quick outline:

A few comments:

I'm not the biggest fan of lua (1-origin arrays? ick!) but embedding it onto the converter is an ideal deployment case for it.

If someone actually launches this, talk to me when it's time to design the event-description DSL. That's good strategy, And: Eliciting requirements for that sort of thing, designing it, and implementing are among the sorts of things I'm particularly expert at.

[Slom]

If hacker culture is tinkering with stuff, finding and sharing workarounds and clever solutions to technical problems, and having fun while doing this, then I don't see how this place is not part of hacker culture.

Serious answer: This crew has some of the aspirations of hacker culture. Some of the mindset. You put your finger on that.

What a lot of you are lacking is the knowledge, the praxis, developed over the last 40 years by the hacker subculture that gave you Linux and the modern Internet. And the reason that matters is because those customs are functional. They keep you out of trouble of the kind Soarer's carelessnes about licenses and source distribution has dropped you into.

So how many of us do you know? You know zilch about most of us, yet you feel entitled to tell us off. Soarer might have lacked knowledge, for most of the rest of us you simple don't know.

You are a complete newbie here, and have no clue of the social structure of this place. Otherwise you would have known that trying to control what people are allowed to say in this topic was asking for disaster.

I'm in no kind of trouble because of Soarer, and never was.

[mode1ace]

DT people have what by my standards is a very weird culture. Anonymous developers? Shipping hex blobs with no licenses? That's...bizarre. In the hacker culture I come from, we assume that disclosed source code is the only thing that can be trusted, and people will stand behind their work with their meatspace identities if required. Everyone is accountable, development is transparent, and you make legal cover for cooperation with proper grants of rights from the get-go.

We didn't evolve those customs by accident. We spent 40 years learning how you get screwed if you don't do that process right, in ways that start with the kind of mess Soarer left behind and get worse when the stakes are higher. Happens I wrote down some of our rules - not that I invented them, mind you, I just noticed why they worked and made us more conscious of them.

In terms of my culture, Soarer did all of you wrong by failing to publish source and license it properly, creating a maintenance nightmare and legal vulnerability that never should have existed. In terms of my culture he damn well ought to be tracked down and if he's still alive slapped upside the head for being dangerously sloppy and careless. You people may not see it that way, but it's because you don't have the norms we do in hacker culture that Soarer's converter will go poof if the particular hardware he built blobs for gets end-of-lifed - and, orihalcon is in some danger of being fined for all the profits he's made and punitive damages on top of that.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have sustainable development practices combined with anonymity backed by a taboo against "doxxing". That DOESN'T FUCKING WORK. If you want to produce quality code you have to put the project first, not the project owner - disclosed source and transparency all the way down is how you build development communities that trust each other and last.

I can't make your choices for you. I can tell you that if you don't clean up your practice, fuckups like this will happen again. And again. And again. And again.

There's a whole lot to unpick here, but the most important thing is realising this is a hobby. People do this for fun. Nobody owes anyone else shit. If you care so much about good practice, develop something of your own. For a famously self professed libertarian you seem incredibly entitled about how other people enjoy their hobbies.

Dunking on a probably dead person and nerdsplaining how to do software development does you no favour, plenty of us work in technology, plenty of us have contributed to open source projects. Soarer wasn't a bad person for enjoying the hobby whatever way he wanted to and he absolutely does not and did not owe you or anyone else shit. Soarer probably didn't give a shit about his legacy, you can't bully his ghost into feeling bad about that and rambling about how his practices are bad like we as a community are responsible for them is just plain strange.

Collectively characterising a forum as a naughty child for not licensing a decade old blob of keyboard converter code in the way you'd like it to be licensed is just wackybrained. If you don't like it, do better, but do it by actually doing some work, not whatever this shit show is.

[zrrion]

Lofi hip hop beats to study and violate the OSI Code of Conduct to

[depletedvespene]

…
You are a complete newbie here, and have no clue of the social structure of this place. Otherwise you would have known that trying to control what people are allowed to say in this topic was asking for disaster.

Back in my day, whenever a noob on DT made a gaffe, people would explain to him what the error was and how to correct it, whether in public or private. Apparently, the "social structure" now mandates that a bunch of morally-defficient retards have "every right" to stomp on any and all basic rules of human decency to continuously shit on a thread where they have no actual interest in the topic at hand.

Frankly, Pham Nuwen's comment on stomping bugs in the forest comes to mind.

I mean, even the reddit hive mind has owned up to the shame some of its major screwups produced in the past.

[jmaynard]

Soarer doesn't owe you shit.

Nobody is saying he does.

Also, I think you have a serious misunderstanding of what the word hacker means.

Dude...you just outed yourself as seriously ignorant. Hint: it's not "computer criminal".

For all the folks saying that someone should just write a clone: The world is usually better off when people don't reinvent wheels. Unless you're Comrade Shallot.

ESR is the original toxic open source hacker. Every time you come across an obnoxious guy on an open source project, he's copying the bad attitude of this archetype.

And just how much code have you contributed to the world of open source, pray tell?

>proclaims to be super hack0r
>can't flash a microcontroller, or use google/search engine of choice apparently

No one person knows everything. (Except you, apparently.) As I mentioned before, I made my living for several years doing embedded firmware development, and I would have to ask how to load firmware into a Soarer's converter. (Yeah, it's probably Googleable, but that might or might not reveal the pitfalls and traps that an experienced person on that specific hardware learned the hard way to avoid.)

No software that people use daily is something that you wrote.

You are simply incorrect about this. If you have a smartphone, there are at least two libraries critical to its functionality that Eric wrote.

[shallot]

…
You are a complete newbie here, and have no clue of the social structure of this place. Otherwise you would have known that trying to control what people are allowed to say in this topic was asking for disaster.

Back in my day, whenever a noob on DT made a gaffe, people would explain to him what the error was and how to correct it, whether in public or private. Apparently, the "social structure" now mandates that a bunch of morally-defficient retards have "every right" to stomp on any and all basic rules of human decency to continuously shit on a thread where they have no actual interest in the topic at hand.

Frankly, Pham Nuwen's comment on stomping bugs in the forest comes to mind.

I mean, even the reddit hive mind has owned up to the shame some of its major screwups produced in the past.

Oh, you mean stamping on basic human decency like esr does on half of the blog posts he makes? I'm not gonna respect a racist, sexist, homophobic pig, soz LOL

[shallot]

Soarer doesn't owe you shit.

Nobody is saying he does.

Also, I think you have a serious misunderstanding of what the word hacker means.

Dude...you just outed yourself as seriously ignorant. Hint: it's not "computer criminal".

For all the folks saying that someone should just write a clone: The world is usually better off when people don't reinvent wheels. Unless you're Comrade Shallot.

ESR is the original toxic open source hacker. Every time you come across an obnoxious guy on an open source project, he's copying the bad attitude of this archetype.

And just how much code have you contributed to the world of open source, pray tell?

>proclaims to be super hack0r
>can't flash a microcontroller, or use google/search engine of choice apparently

No one person knows everything. (Except you, apparently.) As I mentioned before, I made my living for several years doing embedded firmware development, and I would have to ask how to load firmware into a Soarer's converter. (Yeah, it's probably Googleable, but that might or might not reveal the pitfalls and traps that an experienced person on that specific hardware learned the hard way to avoid.)

No software that people use daily is something that you wrote.

You are simply incorrect about this. If you have a smartphone, there are at least two libraries critical to its functionality that Eric wrote.

I may be a communist, but you got ejected from a theater.

[esr]

No software that people use daily is something that you wrote.

Again, I hope somebody else here knows enough to clue this guy in. I'll be over here, laughing my ass off.

It's pardonable ignorance, I suppose. I do tend to work on fairly deep infrastructure.