F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[Takashi]

Sometimes when I start my computer, the keyboard is not detected. I have to unplug it and plug it in again for it to be detected.
I'm running VIA firmware. Anyone has experienced the same issue and has a solution?

[sedevidi]

Sometimes when I start my computer, the keyboard is not detected.

You should probably define « computer », as there are apparently problems with Macs or USB hubs, and I don't remember anyone having this kind of problems with simple PC setups.

[darkcruix]

Sometimes when I start my computer, the keyboard is not detected.

You should probably define « computer », as there are apparently problems with Macs or USB hubs, and I don't remember anyone having this kind of problems with simple PC setups.

I never had issues with my Macs when I have it connected either directly to them or using a powered USB hub. The last one is super important. A hub without its own power supply causes issues for me. (I can verify issues with a KVM switch that is not self-powered. It won't recognize the keyboard one out of five times during boot-up)

[pveentjer]

Sometimes when I start my computer, the keyboard is not detected. I have to unplug it and plug it in again for it to be detected.
I'm running VIA firmware. Anyone has experienced the same issue and has a solution?

I believe he ran into the similar problem from time to time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEcAm6GQlps

[Takashi]

Sometimes when I start my computer, the keyboard is not detected.

You should probably define « computer », as there are apparently problems with Macs or USB hubs, and I don't remember anyone having this kind of problems with simple PC setups.

Normal PC running Windows 10 (core i7 6700k, Z170 motherboard). No USB-hub, but directly connected to a USB-port on the computer. Tested different USB-ports on the computer, all with the same result. This problem happens about every fifth time I start the computer (though not consistent, sometimes it happens twice in a row, and sometimes it can be more than five times inbetween).

[Takashi]

Sometimes when I start my computer, the keyboard is not detected. I have to unplug it and plug it in again for it to be detected.
I'm running VIA firmware. Anyone has experienced the same issue and has a solution?

I believe he ran into the similar problem from time to time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEcAm6GQlps

Interesting, he only gets it every 2-3 months. I get it every ~5th power-on or so, so most likely much more common

[Takashi]

Hey! While trying to figure out why my computer doesn't like the keyboard from time to time i did a firmware write using Atmel Flip with the file "Via F77 - ANSI-ISO - PrintScr.hex". Now I can't in any way manage to get the keyboard to get into bootloader mode, so I can't reprogram it. I should note that I didn't use the pandrew utility to do a EEPROM erase before I loaded the above file using ATMEL FLIP, maybe that screwed something up?

I remember the FN key default being bound to the lower right CTRL, though if I press lower-right CTRL+SPACEBAR+R, it doesn't enter boot loader mode. Tested leftshift+rightshift+b as well, to no avail.

Any ideas what I can do? Is there any other way to enter boot loader mode so that I can just do a clean eeprom-flash?

[sedevidi]

Any ideas what I can do? Is there any other way to enter boot loader mode so that I can just do a clean eeprom-flash?

You can always open the keyboard and short the "reset" pads at "the correct time" (during power-up).
Or there can be a utility to switch it to bootloader mode on the fly.

[Takashi]

Any ideas what I can do? Is there any other way to enter boot loader mode so that I can just do a clean eeprom-flash?

You can always open the keyboard and short the "reset" pads at "the correct time" (during power-up).
Or there can be a utility to switch it to bootloader mode on the fly.

Do you know the name of this utility?

I opened the keyboard, and though I didn't find any reset pads, I found the PROG-pads. I followed this manual: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/manual/
It says you should short the PROG pads and not any reset-pads.
I've tried this for over half an hour now, and it still doesn't enter boot loader mode.
What I do is:
- Short the pads with a tweezer (while keyboard is unplugged)
- Plug the USB-cable in
- Remove the tweezers (here I've tested to do it for various times, from instant to waiting a few seconds).

The keyboard doesn't go into boot-loader mode but it's still a normal keyboard in Windows.

Any suggestions?

[darkcruix]

Any ideas what I can do? Is there any other way to enter boot loader mode so that I can just do a clean eeprom-flash?

You can always open the keyboard and short the "reset" pads at "the correct time" (during power-up).
Or there can be a utility to switch it to bootloader mode on the fly.

Do you know the name of this utility?

I opened the keyboard, and though I didn't find any reset pads, I found the PROG-pads. I followed this manual: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/manual/
It says you should short the PROG pads and not any reset-pads.
I've tried this for over half an hour now, and it still doesn't enter boot loader mode.
What I do is:
- Short the pads with a tweezer (while keyboard is unplugged)
- Plug the USB-cable in
- Remove the tweezers (here I've tested to do it for various times, from instant to waiting a few seconds).

The keyboard doesn't go into boot-loader mode but it's still a normal keyboard in Windows.

Any suggestions?

Have you tried to connect the keyboard and use Left Shift + Right Shift + B to get into the bootloader?

[Takashi]

You can always open the keyboard and short the "reset" pads at "the correct time" (during power-up).
Or there can be a utility to switch it to bootloader mode on the fly.

Do you know the name of this utility?

I opened the keyboard, and though I didn't find any reset pads, I found the PROG-pads. I followed this manual: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/manual/
It says you should short the PROG pads and not any reset-pads.
I've tried this for over half an hour now, and it still doesn't enter boot loader mode.
What I do is:
- Short the pads with a tweezer (while keyboard is unplugged)
- Plug the USB-cable in
- Remove the tweezers (here I've tested to do it for various times, from instant to waiting a few seconds).

The keyboard doesn't go into boot-loader mode but it's still a normal keyboard in Windows.

Any suggestions?

Have you tried to connect the keyboard and use Left Shift + Right Shift + B to get into the bootloader?

Yes. Doesn't work.

[Takashi]

Keyboard is in bootloader mode! You REALLY need to apply force with the tweezers on the pads for it to work.
The good news is that it doesn't seem to matter how much time it goes before removing the tweezers. What I did was:
- unplug keyboard
- Short-circuit the pads (uzing tweezers with quite a lot of force)
- Plug the keyboard in
- Wait for 1-2 seconds
- Remove the tweezers

Then it went to bootloader mode.
Thank you all!

[Takashi]

I still have the problem with that I have to unplug and plug in the keyboard though, but maybe it's simply something with the combination of my motherboard. I'll upgrade my system in christmas anyway, so I hope the problem dissapears then.

[pandrew]

I still have the problem with that I have to unplug and plug in the keyboard though, but maybe it's simply something with the combination of my motherboard. I'll upgrade my system in christmas anyway, so I hope the problem dissapears then.

Any chance you also tried original xwhatsit firmware? It might behave differently from qmk-based firmwares.

Also I recommend looking for various USB settings in bios, for example toggling legacy USB if you have such a setting.

And the next thing I would do is to check if there's a bios upgrade available for the motherboard.

[Arkku]

You could also try my AAKBD firmware – it has a self-made USB implementation, so it might differ in some mysterious way that would affect the behaviour. Of course you would lose Via and the web configuration tools, but that would also be the case with the OG xwhatsit firmware.

On a related note, I believe I have managed to make the calibration smarter in my firmware such that it detects and corrects keys held down on start (in some cases), even when not using saved calibration. The calibration saved in EEPROM will also now auto-clear itself if it registers more than 5 keys held down on start, so if the saved calibration ended up being very wrong, you could probably force it to clear the save by mashing a lot of keys down when plugging in the keyboard.

https://github.com/arkku/aakbd/releases/tag/0.9.4

[Scarpia]

Wrt. the keyboard not working at startup: I’m using multiple Macs connected through a USB switcher and a dock, and I have two keyboards connected to the dock: an F77 and a Realforce TKL, and I never have issues on startup or waking from sleep with the F77, whereas the Realforce will almost 100% be unresponsive if I touch it before the Mac is awake; the F77 is so reliable that even if the Realforce is the designated driver of the day, I’ll reach around it to tap the spacebar on the F77 to wake up my Mac it’s muscle memory at this point. I think I’ve had the F77 be unresponsive like that maybe three or four times in what, two years?

[sedevidi]

Wrt. the keyboard not working at startup

I strongly suspect some flipper or spring placement to confuse the calibration process in Takashi's case. Thus the above suggestion to try the xwhatsit or AAKBD firmwares, which calibrate differently.
In my case, the left Ctrl key didn't work reliably when the keyboard was plugged in the dock (Thinkpad T430). I suspected USB, and plugged the keyboard in the laptop itself. Left Ctrl apparently worked a bit better there, until I finally removed the spring and turned it between the 12 and 1 o'clock position (it was just 12, or a bit to the 11 o'clock). Left Ctrl worked reliably from then, and I moved the USB back to the dock: it now works reliably; not related to USB...
The difference between the dock USB and the laptop USB, is that the dock is apparently not powered when the laptop is sleeping. The keyboard thus cannot wake up the laptop (not a problem), and is itself powered up when waking the laptop. I guess this means that a new calibration occurs at that time, and may fix detection level variance...
In Takashi's setup, the keyboard may never recalibrate if the USB ports are always powered. Calibration levels may become invalid with time/weather/static buildup/whatever...

[cjmegatron81]

I am trying to turn off the solenoid sound on my new Model F with the key command "Fn+Spacebar+T–>Toggle the Solenoid On/Off”. In the program Via, I am not seeing a way to program “Fn”. I am using “MO(1)" and that is not working (that was a guess to make it work). How can I program “Fn” in Via?

Thanks!

[Ellipse]

Someone sent me the following regarding "multiple keys registering when one key is pressed.

I've had a look at the troubleshooting guide which suggested it was maybe a problem with the flippers/springs. I've tried reseating the caps for the keys I'm having issues with, but that doesn't seem to affect the problem at all.

Any idea what the solution might be?

The keys that are registering together are:
D & C
G & B
K & N
L & .
Z & X
/ & left ctrl & right alt

Numpad:
Left arrow and 0
Up arrow and ."

The user has cleared the EEPROM and reflashed the firmware, to no avail.

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IMG_20220618_194515.jpg (290.07 KiB) Viewed 4694 times

IMG_20220618_194334.jpg (268.34 KiB) Viewed 4694 times

[Arkku]

Random question, but are the springs and/or flippers compatible between these new Model F keyboards and the vintage ones, e.g., XT and AT?

[thefarside]

Random question, but are the springs and/or flippers compatible between these new Model F keyboards and the vintage ones, e.g., XT and AT?

Yes they are. In the picture below the bottom right flipper is a reproduction and the two on the left are original IBM.

IMG_6375.jpg (2.69 MiB) Viewed 4548 times

On this picture the one on the left is a reproduction and the right is original IBM:

IMG_5439.jpeg (1.45 MiB) Viewed 4548 times

Hope this helps!

Also, I heard there are some flippers (XT maybe?) that have angled edges and might not be compatible with AT and 4704 style flippers. I can’t speak from experience and maybe someone who knows better can chime in. I know the reproductions are AT and 4704 style.

[Ellipse]

It is my understanding that all Model F flippers are compatible with all Model F keyboards. Nice photo comparison!

[Miky2147]

Hi, I'm interested in the F77 (Off-White/Beige). I have some questions (these are probably stupid questions, I apologize in advance):

- I use my keyboards connected to the usb hub integrated in the monitor (Acer X34P), will I have problems with this keyboard?

-What is the solenoid for? I've never had a keyboard with a solenoid. Can the F77 be ordered with the solenoid already mounted?

-Is it better to choose the RIGHT SIDE BLOCK with "0-9 and cursor keys" or "Print / ScrLock / Pause / Ins / Del etc. keys + cursor keys"?

- I am Italian but for some years now I have not used the ITA layout anymore, I only use the US layout. I have a question: to write in Italian I need to use accents (and the apostrophe) that on the US keyboard for the grave accent I have to press first ~ `(top left under esc) then the letter concerned and it will come out for example the accented letter "è". This keyboard doesn't have that key but it has the esc key in its place, how am I going to type?

-Is there a guarantee on this keyboard yes or no? What happens if something breaks after 1-2 years?

Thank you

[Ellipse]

I just answered these questions in reply to your email; repeating these answers below for others who may have the same questions:

Great! Glad you are joining the project! Kindly see my replies below.

-I do not know. Some USB hubs can be troublesome.

-The solenoid adds a sound and feeling to each key press and is definitely recommended. Yes I can install the solenoid and driver in a classic case keyboard for an additional $40 (please order 40 units of the store item $1 increments, in addition to ordering the solenoid and solenoid driver). (however it is very easy to install yourself so I recommend self-install)

-Right side block is based on your preference. Do you enter many numbers on your current computer, or do you use the Insert/Delete/etc. keys more?

-I don't know, but in your situation I definitely recommend the HHKB with split backspace option. This gives you a dedicated key for ~ as shown on the F77 product page.

-The keyboard is covered under a one year limited warranty. However the philosophy of these keyboards is that the user can repair them very easily, even many years from now. I definitely recommend spare parts for future maintenance and repairs (example: purchase the First Aid Kit, additional extra springs, etc.).

[Miky2147]

Anyone have pictures of the F77 with HHKB with split backspace option? Thank you

[Ellipse]

Here are some nice floss mod and solenoid videos on YouTube - good quality sound!

[Scarpia]

- I use my keyboards connected to the usb hub integrated in the monitor (Acer X34P), will I have problems with this keyboard?

Hubs are different and it can be an issue (with many keyboards, not just the F77), but at least in my case it has worked fine; For the first >1 year I had mine connected through not one, but three USB hubs chained together: my PC and my Mac were connected to a KVM switch with a USB hub, the USB hub in the first monitor was connected to that, the USB hub in my second monitor was connected to *that*, and the F77 was connected to monitor 2. It all worked flawlessly. These are old Dell 27-inch 1440p monitors, nothing fancy.

More recently I bought a DisplayLink-capable USB 3 dock so I can run dual monitors from my new work Mac (it’s an M1 model so you can’t run dual external monitors without these shenanigans) and now I’m connecting both my Macs through first a USB switcher, then the DisplayLink-enabled dock, and finally the F77. Also works without any issues.

-What is the solenoid for? I've never had a keyboard with a solenoid. Can the F77 be ordered with the solenoid already mounted?

Contrary to what Ellipse said, I would advise against getting a solenoid if you aren’t sure what it does or if you want one. The F77 is a L O U D keyboard by modern standards, it will not make you popular in a shared office, even if its sounds are ear candy to us enthusiasts. Most people who aren’t used to buckling springs or very loud clicky keyboards will find the F77 plenty loud enough. What the solenoid does is outfit this already-loud keyboard with a tiny jackhammer so you can fill your shared home office with the thundering requiem of impending divorce.

If that sounds like something you need in your life, then go for it, let your freak flag fly.

[Miky2147]

Thanks for your answers. The noise of the solenoid that I hear in that video I find annoying for my taste. I guess I wouldn't like that, so I'm thinking of ordering the keyboard without the solenoid. Hopefully I will order it in the future considering that it can be installed later.
To be safe, can you confirm that to get the ~ `key I have to order the F77 with the" HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace "option? And if I order the keyboard now, what are the delivery times? Thank you

[Arkku]

- I am Italian but for some years now I have not used the ITA layout anymore, I only use the US layout. I have a question: to write in Italian I need to use accents (and the apostrophe) that on the US keyboard for the grave accent I have to press first ~ `(top left under esc) then the letter concerned and it will come out for example the accented letter "è". This keyboard doesn't have that key but it has the esc key in its place, how am I going to type?

Note that you can remap keys as you prefer. Personally I have the ~` key in the top left corner, and to get Esc I can press Fn together with that key. My Fn key is done using the split right shift. Of course you can also do the same the other way around, so that it is Esc normally but Fn + Esc is ~`, whichever you use more.

Another thing you can do to get an Esc is to configure a key like Ctrl as a combo key that works as Ctrl when you hold it and press another key, but sends Esc if you only tap it. (I do this with the "caps lock" key, i.e., the key that is above left shift.)

Splitting the backspace is of course a viable option, which I have also tried but I seem to have a reflex to press the left side of backspace when I correct a typo I just made and the right side of backspace when I'm deleting something that was there before… So it may take a bit of getting used to. (I converted one of my F77s to a split backspace first but reverted it back to a normal backspace a week later. I'm still trying the split backspace on my F62, though.)


Anyway, my point is: these keyboards are very customisable: you can do custom mappings in firmware, including one or more "Fn" keys and layers that you can toggle between, and if you get a few extra keycaps you can split or unsplit keys later.

[Arkku]

The noise of the solenoid that I hear in that video I find annoying for my taste. I guess I wouldn't like that, so I'm thinking of ordering the keyboard without the solenoid. Hopefully I will order it in the future considering that it can be installed later.

You can definitely add a solenoid later, but if you are not specifically looking for a LOUD typewriter kind of retro experience, you almost certainly don't want one. The buckling springs are plenty loud and tactile on their own by modern standards.

(The first time I started typing intensely on my F77 when someone was wrong on the Internet, my girlfriend came from the other room because of the noise to see if I have had a stroke or something. True story, no solenoid required.)