Alps Appreciation

[Polecat]

Thank you Polecat!

As far as I know the spacebar has the more common Cherry type stabilizer.

The BAE key stabilzer appears to be a Costar type. It has the Costar cross-type hook to attach under the keycaps. Tai-Hao however used the smaller Alps type bottom hook to snap in to the switch plate instead of the bigger Costar type bottom hook.

Though the keyboard works fine as it is now, I plan to get 10 pcs each of the above top and bottom hooks and 5 pcs 2u wires to complete the stabilizers later.

I am a newbie so could not comment on the interlinkages between the keyboard makers as of now.

A bit more on the Tai Hao keyboard, if I may. It just occurred to me why they used the odd stabilizer and guide pin. Looking at an old photo of an ISO Focus FK-555 switchplate <attached, not my photo> it's fairly obvious that the Tai Hao plate would also accomodate an ISO Enter key layout, and that the Tai Hao BAE keycap was designed to share that same plate. Focus and Northgate did something similar, only their plate layout was shared between BAE and ANSI. Clever, those engineers!

[sd8450]

Thank you for the information on the stabilizers. Early Focus (and Northgate) keyboards had a BAE key with a horizontal Alps-style (rectangular inserts) stabilizer wire, and a guide pin on the upper part of the key. Later Focus (but not Northgate) keyboards had two stabilizer wires on the BAE--one vertical, and one horizontal, and no guide pin. That change was sometime between 1989 and 1991. I've never seen a BAE like yours on any other keyboard.

The early Focus and Northgate keyboards used a Cherry style stabilizer on the spacebar like yours, but that was changed to an Alps style setup around 1988-1989. As much as we want this stuff to be simple, it just isn't the case.

If it helps, Tai Hao sells an Alps style stabilizer kit for a very reasonable price, and their customer service is absolutely first class.

I am also puzzled with regards the vertical orientation of the BAE key switch and stabilizer and why no slider guide was provided for the thinner diameter pin. Anyway, the BAE key works with no issues as it is now and maybe a slider guide is really not necessary. Of course I would like to also have the slider guide for completeness sake but I don't think something like that can be found easily.

Pictures of keyboards with the horizontally oriented BAE key switch mostly show a bigger diameter pin under the BAE keycap and are also provided with a slider guide snapped in to the switch plate. It looks like the slider guide is necessary in this case as the pin is at the unsupported wider end part of the BAE keycap..

I also have not come across a picture of a keyboard with vertical oriented BAE keyswitch, but have seen some for ISO Enter keyswitch. This is why I thought Tai-Hao was meaning to issue this keyboard design in ISO layout. However, the fixed location of the keyswitch holes for the shortened Right Shift key and the Backslash key seems to not support this idea. It will require a revised steel switchplate and PCB to support proper keyswitch location for a 2.25u ISO style Right Shift key. So it seems this keyboard was intentionally designed to support a Focus layout.

Thanks for the info about Tai-Hao Alps style stabilizer kit.

..

[Polecat]

There were U.S. keyboards sold with an ISO Enter key. The Focus FK-2002 in the link below I bought new back in the '90s. It had a Macro key next to the small left shift, instead of the 102nd ISO key.

download/file.php?id=54704

Some Mac clone Alps keyboards also had an ISO Enter with U.S. layouts. There were no rules telling anyone what they could build, and sharing of parts made perfect sense from a bottom line standpoint. Monterey did the opposite--they built European ISO keyboards with a BAE Enter key.

The Northgate and early Focus keyboards used the snap-in guide pin socket which fit a standard Alps switch hole, but I believe you're correct that those used a bigger pin than the Tai Hao. I can measure a Northgate or Focus one for you if that would help. There's one shown here:

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=22072

I am also puzzled with regards the vertical orientation of the BAE key switch and stabilizer and why no slider guide was provided for the thinner diameter pin. Anyway, the BAE key works with no issues as it is now and maybe a slider guide is really not necessary. Of course I would like to also have the slider guide for completeness sake but I don't think something like that can be found easily.

Pictures of keyboards with the horizontally oriented BAE key switch mostly show a bigger diameter pin under the BAE keycap and are also provided with a slider guide snapped in to the switch plate. It looks like the slider guide is necessary in this case as the pin is at the unsupported wider end part of the BAE keycap..

I also have not come across a picture of a keyboard with vertical oriented BAE keyswitch, but have seen some for ISO Enter keyswitch. This is why I thought Tai-Hao was meaning to issue this keyboard design in ISO layout. However, the fixed location of the keyswitch holes for the shortened Right Shift key and the Backslash key seems to not support this idea. It will require a revised steel switchplate and PCB to support proper keyswitch location for a 2.25u ISO style Right Shift key. So it seems this keyboard was intentionally designed to support a Focus layout.

Thanks for the info about Tai-Hao Alps style stabilizer kit.

..

[mikhail]

Hello:) I find out MX switches have unpleasant hard bottom, nothing can improve it. I’m notice days ago that alps in simple stainless steel plate not hard at all. I’m starting experimenting, and went to linear white Alps heavy sorted by smooth, baglubed with some paraffin bike lube + brushlube with 205g2 as damper lube. It seems less but more viscous lubing is good for Alps as cherry style lube.
For keeb a take my Acer kb-84as with thick AE dyesubs on alphas and grey numpad from Bull Bigfoot. I love that it have low typing angle, it seems it’s better for AE profile, and side profile of the kb convenient in comparison of ibm-like ATs.
So it’s came out very usable for typing and gaming, and good sound too. I think lubed linear Alps underestimated nowadays, it still Alps with light alps-style tactility, pleasant bottom out, and signature sound from bottom and up srtokes.
Also, workin with alps I notice very useful thing that you can swap slider+top housing without solder, so it’s almost hot-swap, because this two parts determine smoothness of the switch.

[ntv242ver2]

I really think you should go with the original space bar

[sd8450]

There were U.S. keyboards sold with an ISO Enter key. The Focus FK-2002 in the link below I bought new back in the '90s. It had a Macro key next to the small left shift, instead of the 102nd ISO key.

download/file.php?id=54704

Some Mac clone Alps keyboards also had an ISO Enter with U.S. layouts. There were no rules telling anyone what they could build, and sharing of parts made perfect sense from a bottom line standpoint. Monterey did the opposite--they built European ISO keyboards with a BAE Enter key.

The Northgate and early Focus keyboards used the snap-in guide pin socket which fit a standard Alps switch hole, but I believe you're correct that those used a bigger pin than the Tai Hao. I can measure a Northgate or Focus one for you if that would help. There's one shown here:

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=22072

Thank you for the clearer picture of the ISO Focus FK-555 switchplate and the link to your Focus FK-2001/FK-2002 project. I enjoyed reading about your project and looking at the pictures.

The snap-in guide pin socket in your Focus FK-2001 and the Omnikey 102 appears to be the same size as the bigger diameter guide pin from the pictures here: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=13709 and here viewtopic.php?f=45&t=13609

For comparison here is the picture of the guide pin of the vertically oriented BAE key in my keyboard:

[sd8450]

Hello:) I find out MX switches have unpleasant hard bottom, nothing can improve it. I’m notice days ago that alps in simple stainless steel plate not hard at all. I’m starting experimenting, and went to linear white Alps heavy sorted by smooth, baglubed with some paraffin bike lube + brushlube with 205g2 as damper lube. It seems less but more viscous lubing is good for Alps as cherry style lube.
For keeb a take my Acer kb-84as with thick AE dyesubs on alphas and grey numpad from Bull Bigfoot. I love that it have low typing angle, it seems it’s better for AE profile, and side profile of the kb convenient in comparison of ibm-like ATs.
So it’s came out very usable for typing and gaming, and good sound too. I think lubed linear Alps underestimated nowadays, it still Alps with light alps-style tactility, pleasant bottom out, and signature sound from bottom and up srtokes.
Also, workin with alps I notice very useful thing that you can swap slider+top housing without solder, so it’s almost hot-swap, because this two parts determine smoothness of the switch.

I really think you should go with the original space bar

I second the suggestion to use the original spacebar if you still have it. It still looks very nice as it is now by the way.

[mikhail]

I don’t think so:)

[Polecat]

Looking at your photos I'm wondering if a guide post socket would be too tall to work with your BAE key? Those stick up fairly high from the plate, and there might not be clearance on the keycap for it to work.

I just measured some guide posts. These were done with cheap digitital calipers, so not intended as a precision spec to be used for anything more than a quick comparison.

Early Focus FK-2001 BAE key = 0.22 inch (5.6mm)

Early Focus FK-2001 Spacebar = 0.14 inch (3.7mm)

Avant Stellar BAE key = 0.21 inch (5.3mm)

Costar CSK-2101 (Alps) BAE key = 0.18 inch (4.5mm)

I also found an unidentified Alps BAE key with two stabilizer wires (no guide pin), with one set of inserts rectangular Alps style and the other set MX cross mount. I'm thinking it's from a later (Windows keys) FK-2001, but that's not confirmed yet.

Thank you for the clearer picture of the ISO Focus FK-555 switchplate and the link to your Focus FK-2001/FK-2002 project. I enjoyed reading about your project and looking at the pictures.

The snap-in guide pin socket in your Focus FK-2001 and the Omnikey 102 appears to be the same size as the bigger diameter guide pin from the pictures here: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=13709 and here viewtopic.php?f=45&t=13609

For comparison here is the picture of the guide pin of the vertically oriented BAE key in my keyboard:

[sd8450]

Looking at your photos I'm wondering if a guide post socket would be too tall to work with your BAE key? Those stick up fairly high from the plate, and there might not be clearance on the keycap for it to work.

I just measured some guide posts. These were done with cheap digitital calipers, so not intended as a precision spec to be used for anything more than a quick comparison.

Early Focus FK-2001 BAE key = 0.22 inch (5.6mm)

Early Focus FK-2001 Spacebar = 0.14 inch (3.7mm)

Avant Stellar BAE key = 0.21 inch (5.3mm)

Costar CSK-2101 (Alps) BAE key = 0.18 inch (4.5mm)

I also found an unidentified Alps BAE key with two stabilizer wires (no guide pin), with one set of inserts rectangular Alps style and the other set MX cross mount. I'm thinking it's from a later (Windows keys) FK-2001, but that's not confirmed yet.

There is enough vertical clearance as the guide post on the BAE keycap sits at the same level as the Alps keycap insert that mates to the Alps switch slider. As I see it, as long as the top of the guide post socket is at a level a litlle below the top housing of the Alps switch, it should be fine. The only relevant differences between the horizontal and my particular vertical oriented BAE key are the diameter of the keycap guide posts and their location.

The smaller diameter of my BAE keycap guide post is likely very close if not exactly the same as your measured diameter of the early Focus FK-2001 Spacebar. Here is a picture in which both the Spacebar and the BAE key guide post can be seen, the Spacebar by the way is also not provided by Tai-Hao with a guide post socket:



The Chicony 5161A keyboard comes with Alps BAE key with two stabilizer wires and no guide pin.

[Polecat]

Thanks, it's easier to see in that photo. I haven't seen a guide for the smaller pin that snaps into an Alps switch opening, but there may be one out there.

The Cherry style stabilizers keep the spacebar from rotating, so a guide post isn't needed. On Focus and Northgate keyboards the spacebar guide post was added when the stabilizer was switched froim Cherry to Alps style. That was around mid-1988. Apparently Tai Hao made the spacebar to work with both types of stabilizer.

I've seen the dual wire stabilizers on BAE caps on later Focus (but not Northgate) and also Monterey and some Datacomp keyboards. The Focus (?) one I just dug out is unusual because the two sets of inserts don't match.

edit: I just checked Tai Hao's website, and their Alps BAE key (which they sell separately) also has the mismatched stabilizer inserts. <attached>

There is enough vertical clearance as the guide post on the BAE keycap sits at the same level as the Alps keycap insert that mates to the Alps switch slider. As I see it, as long as the top of the guide post socket is at a level a litlle below the top housing of the Alps switch, it should be fine. The only relevant differences between the horizontal and my particular vertical oriented BAE key are the diameter of the keycap guide posts and their location.

The smaller diameter of my BAE keycap guide post is likely very close if not exactly the same as your measured diameter of the early Focus FK-2001 Spacebar. Here is a picture in which both the Spacebar and the BAE key guide post can be seen, the Spacebar by the way is also not provided by Tai-Hao with a guide post socket:

The Chicony 5161A keyboard comes with Alps BAE key with two stabilizer wires and no guide pin.

[keycap]

Finally got some 8/10 blue alps recently after years of hunting them down. Barely paid anything for them! I can definitely see where the hype comes from. Granted, white alps are still amazing when clean, but there's just something about the blues that draws me back to them. I think a lot of it is the sound.

[Polecat]

White Alps are not all the same! (blue Alps are probably not all the same...but closer than white Alps...) Early white Alps are the same as late blue Alps, unless removing the blue dye from the plastic changed them somehow. White Alps changed over time as the internal parts were updated. Housings, springs, click leaves, switchplates, plastic formula, lube or lack of, maybe more.

I have three pairs of otherwise identical keyboards with late blue and early white switches and I challenge anyone to tell which is which without popping off keycaps.

We need to dig up the old documentation, or recreate it from currently known examples. Lots of bits and pieces, but I haven't found it all in one place.

[keycap]

The transition period was definitely not instant. I'm still not sure how small switchplates even affect smoothness or sound much considering I barely notice a difference between salmon and orange alps other than weighting. As most others here have speculated before, it's probably the click leaf more than anything. Some old documentation would be cool.

[Polecat]

The old info from the Asian collector sites was already mostly gone when I found this site. But people here have mentioned it many times. If that info still exists we'll need someone who can search and translate it. It would be really difficult (and inaccurate) to try to piece it back together from what's here now. And it would take a lot of work to recreate it from existing examples, but that may be our only option. I have probably 50 white Alps keyboards that span the whole timeframe they were produced, but even that's not a sure thing that they would cover all the variations. Alps never makes it easy for us!

[keycap]

One of my friends teaches Japanese, but I'm not very sure he could find much info, he'd probably just be able to translate stuff if anything. Someone should definitely be archiving Sandy's site as well as other crucial info found on here, just in case...
I doubt they knew anyone could care this much about microswitches decades later which would obviously contribute to a lack of information.

[chipperdoodles]

I finally got to try out some blue alps, and though they were far from pristine within a few seconds i was just like oh... I get it now.

[flowerlandfilms]

I also finally acquired some Blue Alps today for a non extortionate price. It was known that the NEC PowerMate Portable had them, but this was a later revision of that model, I took a chance on it...

IMG_20241111_173748940.jpg (2.47 MiB) Viewed 1256 times

I have used White Dampened, Salmon, Orange, Ivory Dampened, Yellow, Green, and Black Alps. Not to mention many clones, "compatibles" and Matias switches (which I daily drive.)
But in my life I have never typed on such a satisfying switch as this.
The hype was real.
This is a good day.

[fohat]

Great find!
And doubleshot ANSI caps to boot!

[flowerlandfilms]

Great find!
And doubleshot ANSI caps to boot!

Yeh white/cream with grey legends, very nice.
Plus I have a monochrome DOS 286 to play around with now.

[flowerlandfilms]

For a second I thought today's newspaper was actually relevant to my interests...

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[kbdfr]

For a second I thought today's newspaper was actually relevant to my interests...

1000014543.jpg

[flowerlandfilms]

A guy in the Netherlands is selling multiple black DELL AT-101w right now for a price that's not too crazy.
FIve have sold, he has five left.
They have Black Alps apparently.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12674076202 ... media=COPY

[fohat]

The AT101W is an excellent chasis, I have one that I transplanted blue ALPS into and it is a joy to use.

The black variant of AT101W is much harder to find and looks much more contemporary.

[flowerlandfilms]

The AT101W is an excellent chasis, I have one that I transplanted blue ALPS into and it is a joy to use.

The black variant of AT101W is much harder to find and looks much more contemporary.

I grabbed one.
I have a plan for it in which I will spare no expense.

[flowerlandfilms]

Picked up this wacky contraption.

IMG_20241122_142232775.jpg (3.45 MiB) Viewed 499 times

Alps mount tiny keycaps on a dome and slider.

IMG_20241122_142418422.jpg (2.97 MiB) Viewed 499 times

The translucent trackball which was one of the main attractions for me is unfortunately scuffed due to the rubber on the rollers having disintegrated years ago. I'll have to find a way to polish it.

IMG_20241122_142549867.jpg (2.45 MiB) Viewed 499 times

[SK-8K]

Picked up this wacky contraption.

This would be amazing converted to a mechanical. Imagine a custom PCB with Matias's switches and lighting too!

[flowerlandfilms]

Picked up this wacky contraption.

This would be amazing converted to a mechanical. Imagine a custom PCB with Matias's switches and lighting too!

It would, but due to the tiny keycaps if you put proper switches in it the spacing between them would be larger and the effect would be quite strange. Would be fun to add a tiny T-NAV to a board that doesn't have it though.