Alps Lubricant FOUND!

[NeK]

Nothing from me. I have been pretty busy lately but I will find some time during the summer. Having said that, I can say this:

Besides the lubricant, after various tries I have come to believe that it is more important to properly restore the housing, stem and leafs by polishing them. At least for my test switches, a careful and light polishing made the biggest difference. That restored the switch to a high degree. Very smooth, no binding, much better feeling etc. And without lube.

At that point lubing becomes much more effective essentially completing the restoration to a proper 10/10 condition.

I have to delve into details though about how I do the polishing and that will require a big post. Will do that in the future if there's interest.

Back to this, after polishing, what lube solution did you tried? Nek's 50-50™?
My hypothesis is that after polishing, since the surface gets smoother maybe you don't need THAT much viscosity (less rough surface needs less separation) and something like Nyogel 760 would become an alternative?

Yeah I tried my mix on them (which I have changed it to N767a 75-25 OKS477), and the result is indistinguishable from OG (same feeling, sliding, smoothness, sound etc). I would dare to say they feel even better because the plastics are freshly polished. The trick is to apply a tiny bit on specific spots on the stem and then slide in and out to get it evenly spread. And then add a bit if need be or gently wipe some off if it gets heavier.

It's a trial and error process. Although not as complicated as it sounds...

As for the n760g, just forget it. No matter what, it will make it worse. It seems that its hydrocarbons are just too thin (low number of atoms in conjunction with their structure/form) and they don't bond well to the skcm plastics, resulting in an adverse effect.

My "theory" to explain that, is that their HC are not long enough to "fill" in properly the asperities of the skcm plastics, in order to create a contiguous strong oil film that holds the two surfaces apart and prevents them from touching/rubbing. The adverse effect is the result of actually making it easier for the asperities of the surfaces to get bound together, i.e., instead of preventing them from touching, they ease their microscopic troughs of one surface to slide in the valleys of the other surface and get stuck and thus bind the surfaces very strongly together.

Whereas, the N767A has HC that are long enough and/or their form is such that will properly saturate the asperities and create an adequate oil film that actually keeps the surfaces apart, and the sliding friction happens only on top of the oil film, which has very low internal shear resistence and a low friction coefficient. Thus resulting in the smooth slide and no binding.

Again my disclaimer: this is just my (stupid) theory and I may be totally wrong.

Update: and one more important thing to add: this adverse effect happens with other lubes that I tried too, not only N760g. Especially silicon thickened greases! There is probably some correlation of thickener in conjuction with the HC of the base oil.

You see I have dropped "the viscosity is the most important factor" for some time now. Especially when I used a very heavy viscosity lube but with different kind of base oil (Check out my posts about the OKS1110) that had the same issues as the N760g. And this got pretty clear to me when I read that the viscosity of the OG lube was pretty low (in relation).

So the type of base oil and of the thickener is important.

[Polecat]

No reliable source. Just my encounters (I have 4-5 white skcm boards) and just reading around. I may be wrong one this one sure.
It would be nice if you could pull out one switch of those very early white keyboards and take some good pics of the stems right beside a blue stem. I am curious too.

I have probably forty white SKCM keyboards, and the switches vary greatly depending on age. This is not just a condition thing, especially since the older versions tend to be the better ones. I'm not sure what exactly is different, but I question the statement about the slider material since as far as I know nobody has ever conclusively nailed that down. There are definitely other differences in white SKCM switches, not just pine vs. bamboo. It would be wonderful to have all of those conclusively documented, but as far as I know nobody has been able to do that in all the years we've been talking about these things. I'll be happy to take some photos, but I don't see how that would tell us anything about the slider material.

[NeK]

I have probably forty white SKCM keyboards, and the switches vary greatly depending on age. This is not just a condition thing, especially since the older versions tend to be the better ones. I'm not sure what exactly is different, but I question the statement about the slider material since as far as I know nobody has ever conclusively nailed that down. There are definitely other differences in white SKCM switches, not just pine vs. bamboo. It would be wonderful to have all of those conclusively documented, but as far as I know nobody has been able to do that in all the years we've been talking about these things. I'll be happy to take some photos, but I don't see how that would tell us anything about the slider material.

Last keyboard I got with pine whites were so different I thought they truly were different. I took a switch out and put the stem side by side with another pine white, and they were as though as they had lube on them too. I could have sweared they were lubed and had different material. The only problem was that they felt bad, very, very heavy and with a bit of binding. The wxact opposite of what white(and blue for that matter) skcm was about.

But once I cleaned it, they were exactly the same as qith the other white pines. It turned out that it was moisture that had turned solid with dirt and with age. Once cleaned, it felt good, smooth and with no binding.

This is why I want you to take one out and check it.

[NeK]

Hey guys, (as I promised) I made 2 videos on how to polish and how to apply the lube. Excuse the POTATO quality and my breathing and... the cicadas performing an opera out my window and... the motorcycle guy etc. . Hope you enjoy them

ALPS Blue SKCM Polishing

Lubing a Blue SKCM switch with N767A+OKS477 and compared with NOS

Let me know your thoughts and your results if you try anything from them.

You can find them in my dedicated thread also with more information : viewtopic.php?p=475861#p475861

[Polecat]

Last keyboard I got with pine whites were so different I thought they truly were different. I took a switch out and put the stem side by side with another pine white, and they were as though as they had lube on them too. I could have sweared they were lubed and had different material. The only problem was that they felt bad, very, very heavy and with a bit of binding. The wxact opposite of what white(and blue for that matter) skcm was about.

But once I cleaned it, they were exactly the same as qith the other white pines. It turned out that it was moisture that had turned solid with dirt and with age. Once cleaned, it felt good, smooth and with no binding.

This is why I want you to take one out and check it.

Here are the two sliders, from gold label Northgates dated three weeks apart.

[NeK]

Last keyboard I got with pine whites were so different I thought they truly were different. I took a switch out and put the stem side by side with another pine white, and they were as though as they had lube on them too. I could have sweared they were lubed and had different material. The only problem was that they felt bad, very, very heavy and with a bit of binding. The wxact opposite of what white(and blue for that matter) skcm was about.

But once I cleaned it, they were exactly the same as qith the other white pines. It turned out that it was moisture that had turned solid with dirt and with age. Once cleaned, it felt good, smooth and with no binding.

This is why I want you to take one out and check it.

Here are the two sliders, from gold label Northgates dated three weeks apart.

The newer material is easy to distinguish. It is more specular, more smooth and more slippery.

From the photo I can see 2-3 differences (apart from the color obviously): 1) the little round bit on the center of the blue stem is missing from the white. 2) the light reflected out of the white stem is more specular (more intense). 3) I can barely see the characteristic two band stripes that are vertically on the white surface. Which are missing in the blue one.

If you run your fingernail on the surface of both, can you feel a difference? I bet the white one will feel much smoother.

However for the differences to shows clearly, the surfaces should be cleaned well. (Using a cloth + window cleaner or something)

[Polecat]

Well my point was that these two keyboards, in clean original condition, the same make and model, and dated three weeks apart, one with white SKCM and one with blue, are indistinguishable in sound and feel to me. I've owned them for thirty years, so I know nobody has ever cleaned or lubed them or swapped parts. This compared to my many later white SKCM keyboards, which are quite different in sound and feel (even the Northgate ones). So...if you can tell the slider material is different from one blurry photo (my fault) then why are these white SKCM switches (very early, unbranded upper housings) the same in feel and sound as late blues, but different than all my later whites?

Here's an older post with more details on the two Northgates:

viewtopic.php?p=386593#p386593

[headphone_jack]

If I had to guess, I'd think the SKCL/SKCM lubricant was TB2581P.

I don't know why we're even debating what they originally used. In my original email to Alps, they seemed pretty clear that yes, it was 2581P for the SKCM/L line. 16 months later and we've come in a big circle, heh.

[NeK]

Well my point was that these two keyboards, in clean original condition, the same make and model, and dated three weeks apart, one with white SKCM and one with blue, are indistinguishable in sound and feel to me. I've owned them for thirty years, so I know nobody has ever cleaned or lubed them or swapped parts. This compared to my many later white SKCM keyboards, which are quite different in sound and feel (even the Northgate ones). So...if you can tell the slider material is different from one blurry photo (my fault) then why are these white SKCM switches (very early, unbranded upper housings) the same in feel and sound as late blues, but different than all my later whites?

Here's an older post with more details on the two Northgates:

viewtopic.php?p=386593#p386593

I think you are probably right. I took a look at all of my white keyboards and there is one that is very much alike the blue ones. This needs more investigation and certainly some kind of categorization.

But lets stay on topic, and continue this on another thread if you may. I also found a way to tell the new material apart without disturbing the stems at all by using a simple... Bic pen!

[Polecat]

I think you are probably right. I took a look at all of my white keyboards and there is one that is very much alike the blue ones. This needs more investigation and certainly some kind of categorization.

But lets stay on topic, and continue this on another thread if you may. I also found a way to tell the new material apart without disturbing the stems at all by using a simple... Bic pen!

The slider material is related to lube, so it's not completely off topic. But a separate thread on this sounds good, especially if we can get some objective information on the slider material(s). I honestly don't know what all changed during the many years that blue and white SKCM switches were made, but I agree that it needs to be investigated and documented. I'm good at soldering/desoldering and component level repair, but taking switches apart gives me major anxiety. I'm just not real comfortable with tiny moving parts. I've already put my two Northgates back together. But I am interested in knowing more about different slider materials, and how to test for that.

[NeK]

I think you are probably right. I took a look at all of my white keyboards and there is one that is very much alike the blue ones. This needs more investigation and certainly some kind of categorization.

But lets stay on topic, and continue this on another thread if you may. I also found a way to tell the new material apart without disturbing the stems at all by using a simple... Bic pen!

The slider material is related to lube, so it's not completely off topic. But a separate thread on this sounds good, especially if we can get some objective information on the slider material(s). I honestly don't know what all changed during the many years that blue and white SKCM switches were made, but I agree that it needs to be investigated and documented. I'm good at soldering/desoldering and component level repair, but taking switches apart gives me major anxiety. I'm just not real comfortable with tiny moving parts. I've already put my two Northgates back together. But I am interested in knowing more about different slider materials, and how to test for that.

Today I spent time on examining closely the early White pine that was different from the other whites and which I thought was similar to Blues. I tried various ways to see if there is any difference and it turns out that this white skcm also has the newer material and not the material that the Blues have.

I took plenty of pictures, and videos with many angles against strong lighting with a magnifying glass and I could see that the texture of the particular white was more specular than the blue and appeared more smooth. I also rubbed the back plastic tip of a BIC pen against the stem and it was definitely smoother than what blues are, same smoothness as all the other whites (this was the test I was talking about).

Finally I did one more test, which I have came up with some time ago, that is very reliable in discerning older material stems from the newer ones:

I used an ultra-smooth surface, in particular the naked screen of my Samsung Galaxy S10 smartphone (without any protector) and I thoroughly cleaned it along with the stems. I placed the 3 stems, the early white under consideration, a blue skcm and a refular white skcm. I placed them all facing at the same position and sides and then I slightly rotated the phone to see which ones will start moving quicker and faster and the result was that the blue SKCM was almost immovable while the two white ones where very easy to slide all along the screen as I tilted it around.

That means that both white stems were much smoother (had lower friction) than the blue one. And with that result, my final verdict is that this white skcm stem is no different from all the other white skcm stems and it is made from the same newer material. Despite that, this particular white stem was in fact different in its shape, it didn't have the band in the back and has a weird "mark" in from of it shaped like a Spades symbol of playing cards. But as far as the material goes, it is definitely made from the newer lower friction one. That doesn't mean however that Polecat's white northgate stems are also of newer material, this has yet to be tested, but at least my suspected white one was ruled out.

[andresteare]

I think you are probably right. I took a look at all of my white keyboards and there is one that is very much alike the blue ones. This needs more investigation and certainly some kind of categorization.

But lets stay on topic, and continue this on another thread if you may. I also found a way to tell the new material apart without disturbing the stems at all by using a simple... Bic pen!

The slider material is related to lube, so it's not completely off topic. But a separate thread on this sounds good, especially if we can get some objective information on the slider material(s). I honestly don't know what all changed during the many years that blue and white SKCM switches were made, but I agree that it needs to be investigated and documented. I'm good at soldering/desoldering and component level repair, but taking switches apart gives me major anxiety. I'm just not real comfortable with tiny moving parts. I've already put my two Northgates back together. But I am interested in knowing more about different slider materials, and how to test for that.

Today I spent time on examining closely the early White pine that was different from the other whites and which I thought was similar to Blues. I tried various ways to see if there is any difference and it turns out that this white skcm also has the newer material and not the material that the Blues have.

I took plenty of pictures, and videos with many angles against strong lighting with a magnifying glass and I could see that the texture of the particular white was more specular than the blue and appeared more smooth. I also rubbed the back plastic tip of a BIC pen against the stem and it was definitely smoother than what blues are, same smoothness as all the other whites (this was the test I was talking about).

Finally I did one more test, which I have came up with some time ago, that is very reliable in discerning older material stems from the newer ones:

I used an ultra-smooth surface, in particular the naked screen of my Samsung Galaxy S10 smartphone (without any protector) and I thoroughly cleaned it along with the stems. I placed the 3 stems, the early white under consideration, a blue skcm and a refular white skcm. I placed them all facing at the same position and sides and then I slightly rotated the phone to see which ones will start moving quicker and faster and the result was that the blue SKCM was almost immovable while the two white ones where very easy to slide all along the screen as I tilted it around.

That means that both white stems were much smoother (had lower friction) than the blue one. And with that result, my final verdict is that this white skcm stem is no different from all the other white skcm stems and it is made from the same newer material. Despite that, this particular white stem was in fact different in its shape, it didn't have the band in the back and has a weird "mark" in from of it shaped like a Spades symbol of playing cards. But as far as the material goes, it is definitely made from the newer lower friction one. That doesn't mean however that Polecat's white northgate stems are also of newer material, this has yet to be tested, but at least my suspected white one was ruled out.

Nek, do you have any simplified Alps to compare?, Comparing my simplified alps with SKCM Black and White Damped, the SKBM White's slider plastic is way harder and not smooth like later SKCM switches

[mode1ace]

That means that both white stems were much smoother (had lower friction) than the blue one. And with that result, my final verdict is that this white skcm stem is no different from all the other white skcm stems and it is made from the same newer material. Despite that, this particular white stem was in fact different in its shape, it didn't have the band in the back and has a weird "mark" in from of it shaped like a Spades symbol of playing cards. But as far as the material goes, it is definitely made from the newer lower friction one. That doesn't mean however that Polecat's white northgate stems are also of newer material, this has yet to be tested, but at least my suspected white one was ruled out.

Friction can behave very differently between different materials, so the slide test against glass isn't necessarily conclusive.

I'd agree with the conclusion though, I've never seen a 2nd coloured gen slider that looked like the same material as a 1st gen slider.

[NeK]

Nek, do you have any simplified Alps to compare?, Comparing my simplified alps with SKCM Black and White Damped, the SKBM White's slider plastic is way harder and not smooth like later SKCM switches

Yes I have a black SKBM keyboard in almost NOS condition, and yes I also think they are a little bit different (harder) than later SKCM, but for sure they are still smoother than Blue SKCM.

You can try it yourself with your smartphone screen.

[NeK]

That means that both white stems were much smoother (had lower friction) than the blue one. And with that result, my final verdict is that this white skcm stem is no different from all the other white skcm stems and it is made from the same newer material. Despite that, this particular white stem was in fact different in its shape, it didn't have the band in the back and has a weird "mark" in from of it shaped like a Spades symbol of playing cards. But as far as the material goes, it is definitely made from the newer lower friction one. That doesn't mean however that Polecat's white northgate stems are also of newer material, this has yet to be tested, but at least my suspected white one was ruled out.

Friction can behave very differently between different materials, so the slide test against glass isn't necessarily conclusive.

I'd agree with the conclusion though, I've never seen a 2nd coloured gen slider that looked like the same material as a 1st gen slider.

I compared all three of them together though, and I see no reason how that white SKCM is not the same as the other white SKCM, they have the same friction on the same material and behave the same, and the Blue SKCM has different (slower) friction and behaves differently. What do you suggest then in this case, that could possibly lead to different conclusion?

[mode1ace]

Friction can behave very differently between different materials, so the slide test against glass isn't necessarily conclusive.

I'd agree with the conclusion though, I've never seen a 2nd coloured gen slider that looked like the same material as a 1st gen slider.

I compared all three of them together though, and I see no reason how that white SKCM is not the same as the other white SKCM, they have the same friction on the same material and behave the same, and the Blue SKCM has different (slower) friction and behaves differently. What do you suggest then in this case, that could possibly lead to different conclusion?

Nothing, I said I agree with the conclusion, just the methodology is flawed.

[NeK]

Nothing, I said I agree with the conclusion, just the methodology is flawed.

You are probably right that it is flawed. I am concerned though, if you think that the test is totally useless. I think that despite its flaws, if one object is a lot more slower than another (has obviously higher friction), then it can be said that they are made of different materials. And that's all that's needed in the case of blues vs whites. Am I right? I am genuinely asking.

[andresteare]

Yeah I tried my mix on them (which I have changed it to N767a 75-25 OKS477), and the result is indistinguishable from OG (same feeling, sliding, smoothness, sound etc). I would dare to say they feel even better because the plastics are freshly polished. The trick is to apply a tiny bit on specific spots on the stem and then slide in and out to get it evenly spread. And then add a bit if need be or gently wipe some off if it gets heavier.

It's a trial and error process. Although not as complicated as it sounds...

As for the n760g, just forget it. No matter what, it will make it worse. It seems that its hydrocarbons are just too thin (low number of atoms in conjunction with their structure/form) and they don't bond well to the skcm plastics, resulting in an adverse effect.

My "theory" to explain that, is that their HC are not long enough to "fill" in properly the asperities of the skcm plastics, in order to create a contiguous strong oil film that holds the two surfaces apart and prevents them from touching/rubbing. The adverse effect is the result of actually making it easier for the asperities of the surfaces to get bound together, i.e., instead of preventing them from touching, they ease their microscopic troughs of one surface to slide in the valleys of the other surface and get stuck and thus bind the surfaces very strongly together.

Whereas, the N767A has HC that are long enough and/or their form is such that will properly saturate the asperities and create an adequate oil film that actually keeps the surfaces apart, and the sliding friction happens only on top of the oil film, which has very low internal shear resistence and a low friction coefficient. Thus resulting in the smooth slide and no binding.

Again my disclaimer: this is just my (stupid) theory and I may be totally wrong.

Update: and one more important thing to add: this adverse effect happens with other lubes that I tried too, not only N760g. Especially silicon thickened greases! There is probably some correlation of thickener in conjuction with the HC of the base oil.

You see I have dropped "the viscosity is the most important factor" for some time now. Especially when I used a very heavy viscosity lube but with different kind of base oil (Check out my posts about the OKS1110) that had the same issues as the N760g. And this got pretty clear to me when I read that the viscosity of the OG lube was pretty low (in relation).

So the type of base oil and of the thickener is important.

Speaking of Nyogel, searching in Taobao I can't find 767A at a decent price, so I thought that maybe I could replace it with 774 (I remember that there are variations according to the letter at the end), which is available at a good price, but adjusting the ratio with OKS 477, but I'm not sure if it's the exact same thing but more viscous, any thoughts?

[NeK]

Speaking of Nyogel, searching in Taobao I can't find 767A at a decent price, so I thought that maybe I could replace it with 774 (I remember that there are variations according to the letter at the end), which is available at a good price, but adjusting the ratio with OKS 477, but I'm not sure if it's the exact same thing but more viscous, any thoughts?

I say 774/774H/774VH are probably more suited for this because they all are lighter than 767A which is like the heavy beast of nyogel. 774VH is the heaviest of the 774 series, the 774H is next heaviest and the 774 is lighter. (The L and VL are even more lighter) In fact I was willing to buy a 774H to test. Maybe one of them will be perfectly balanced and will not need to be mixed. So yeah, go ahead and try them.

[mode1ace]

Nothing, I said I agree with the conclusion, just the methodology is flawed.

You are probably right that it is flawed. I am concerned though, if you think that the test is totally useless. I think that despite its flaws, if one object is a lot more slower than another (has obviously higher friction), then it can be said that they are made of different materials. And that's all that's needed in the case of blues vs whites. Am I right? I am genuinely asking.

I've said that I think your conclusion is right twice, so I hope a third time will do.

[soyuz]

[NeK]

Crazy, but I don't see why it shouldn't work.

I am concerned about if boiling might deform them tbh. Also did anyone compare them side by side to a 10/10 NIB? Is there any more info about this?

[zrrion]

I have some NOS white alps that I could test against, but I am somehow in the position of only having NOS white alps, so I can provide the benchmark, but nothing else. I don't have any NOS or near-NOS examples that I could test against with other alps types though except for SKCC greens.

Deformation at relatively low temperatures like this shouldn't be likely. the later alps switches (simplified/bamboo) are probably made from different plastic though so they might have a lower melting point. Fortunately those are also the sort of switches least appealing from a restoration standpoint so if it turns out that this method does harm them then it wouldn't be to big of a loss

[mode1ace]

FWIW, I acetone tested bamboo alps, and they do melt, so are probably abs, but they're a lot hardier to acetone than most abs things I've tested, like they're not just abs.

Pine alps are not attacked by ABS, the patent says they're PBT, though they don't really seem it.

I've boiled both, they don't deform at all. I find boiling to be much faster and better than ultrasonic bathing, but sometimes non-soluble deposits can resist even boiling if they're really dirty.

[NeK]

Tbh dirt is the least of the issues. The whole point is it to make the plastic stem surfaces as smooth and polished as possible. I use a dremel with felt tip to polish them one by one. Also the metal leafs need to be polished as well. And all of that before adding any kind of lube.

I think the boiling is for using heat to polish them instead. Right?

[mode1ace]

Tbh dirt is the least of the issues. The whole point is it to make the plastic stem surfaces as smooth and polished as possible. I use a dremel with felt tip to polish them one by one. Also the metal leafs need to be polished as well. And all of that before adding any kind of lube.

I'm very skeptical of this, it's not about literally being as smooth as possible, completely flat surfaces can be highly frictional. It's about reducing friction. NOS alps sliders have a leathered appearance, but the switch housing itself is smooth, one slide leathered and the other smooth has less contact area, and no meshing of rough surfaces.

My worst condition blue sliders have seen so much use they have worn smooth, unlubircated this binds horribly.

Just boil and wax your switches, it works amazingly. This problem has now been solved and everyone just has to try this method.

[Jan Pospisil]

So what does the boiling part do supposedly?

[soyuz]

So what does the boiling part do supposedly?

cleans utterly and completely. there's a microscope image of a boiled vs ultrasonic slider floating around somewhere

[mode1ace]

So what does the boiling part do supposedly?

It's a very effective cleaning method, it's also good for evenly coating things in paraffin wax. Dip anything in boiling water with a bit of wax in it, dry that thing off and you'll see it's got a thin coating of wax.

[soyuz]

Tbh dirt is the least of the issues. The whole point is it to make the plastic stem surfaces as smooth and polished as possible. I use a dremel with felt tip to polish them one by one. Also the metal leafs need to be polished as well. And all of that before adding any kind of lube.

I think the boiling is for using heat to polish them instead. Right?

nope. boiling scalds the dirt off, the temparatures involved are nowhere near the plastic's melt or mould points. simply put, the community has been too gentle with switches for years out of fear, which has left people trying to lube dirty switches and shocked pikachu facing when it doesn't work perfectly. for example, i legit find it ironic that you're worried about deforming switches by boiling them when you are taking a dremel to yours.

the wax is plenty to smooth over any remaining issues, and for once, actually prevents the awful scratchy sound, even in linears. we're now at the stage where I personally consider this problem to be solved.